Imaging hard left and right

[Diapason]

A recent bit of speaker moving has left me with a question: how do you feel about hard left and right sounds imaging as if they're coming directly from the speakers? I mean, on the one hand I think "where the hell else would they image?" but on the other hand I feel it slightly spoils the soundstage illusion.

Thoughts?

[Fran]

I think one of the great joys of listening is the soundstage. Its so well worth while adjusting a bit to maximise the return. Soooo.... that would be a no from me, I would be moving things around to bring back a well composed soundstage with breadth, depth and height.

My 2c

[Diapason]

I agree Fran, but the problem here is that in every other way the soundstage and imaging is better than I've ever had it. Hmmm...

So, serious question, ideally where should hard left and right images sound as if they're coming from? Should they image outside the speakers? I suspect that's going to be difficult to arrange in the nerdcave given the speakers are so close to the side walls. As always, for my next upgrade I really just need to move house.

[Ivor]

Ah now... a subject that I've given a lot of thought to so pour a glass or boil the kettle!

I have some recordings, typically late 50s or 60s blues, jazz or soul where the engineer has quite clearly decided to put vocals or a particular instrument to the far extremities... there's usually something left for the middle too but it does leave a very unconvincing soundstage although I suspect at the time the engineer was, ironically, trying to give the impression of a natural spread of musicians. In the embryonic days of stereo some of them tried to run before they could walk! But... that brings us clumsily to the question what is "soundstage" anyway?

Unless the producer/engineer has taken the time to position microphones "in space" throughout a studio or concert hall then what we have is a synthetic version of perceived soundstage - perceived by the producer/engineer... just as in those early days of stereo recording but with better equipment (ok that's debatable) and more experience. The engineer is placing those musicians on a left to right plane and, if skilled enough, on a back to front plane as well. A soundstage can also have height but in my humble opinion that really only has a place in Big Band or classical recordings (but yes there are exceptions!)

If you happen to have a well recorded piece, usually "live" and usually classical, then you should get a genuine soundstage from left to right and also from front to back. It's not exclusive to classical of course, live recordings of rock, jazz and so on can also be hugely atmospheric if they were recorded correctly, sometimes multi mic'ed, sometimes with just two mics for straight stereo - the number of mics is far less important than where and how they were placed. It is possible to get an accurate soundstage by recording straight from the mixing desk at a live concert but again, it's down to who wired it up and if a recording for the gig was a consideration in the first place. Something like Thin Lizzy's "Live & Dangerous" comes to mind.... one of the best live rock recordings available and it had to have come via the mixing desk....

Anyway... to get back on point! Yes soundstage is hugely important, it's the difference between a system that delivers a lot of music and a system that delivers a lot of music and makes sense of it. Be aware that some recordings are deliberately hard left/right and no amount of dancing with speakers will change that. On the subject of soundstage going wider than that the speakers... oddly some speakers and recordings will project beyond the cabinet and even beyond the walls of the room. That's all in the realm of black magic and I refuse to dwell on it.

By the way while typing I remembered a CD I have which was produced by NAIM and the recordings are provided to check soundstage and imagery. On its various tracks it tells you the left to right spread but also which instrument is in front/behind etc. If memory serves they are all live recordings. I also remembered that John Kenny has this CD while I am left with the empty case for it! I sometimes take out the case and look at it wistfully and try to remember what it sounded like (the music isn't great on it actually). If John would be so kind perhaps Simon could use it to check if his soundstage is as NAIM believe it should be?

[Diapason]

Ivor, it's funny you should mention 50s and 60s jazz, because that's exactly the kind of thing that shows the "problem". I think it was Ella Fitzgerald and Nat King Cole recordings that first made me wonder about the question, and as you say, it's clear that it's been engineered that way. Classical discs are fine and more modern recordings are, for the most part, also fine. So is it the view that if something's been engineered at the extremities it's "ok" to have it right in the speaker?

You've also reminded me that I've a Chesky disc that does something similar to that Naim disc you mentioned, so I must rustle that out.

[Ivor]

. So is it the view that if something's been engineered at the extremities it's "ok" to have it right in the speaker?

,

I canonly say that would be my view, I don't think speaker position could remove what's "hard coded" on there anyway and... you'll lose all the genuine soundstage in the process. I also think your speakers are too big to adjust depending on the music being played!

[Diapason]

I also think your speakers are too big to adjust depending on the music being played!

Insert frantically nodding emoji here.

[Marcus]

So, serious question, ideally where should hard left and right images sound as if they're coming from? Should they image outside the speakers?

For me that's a yes. As others have mentioned it's very much down to the recording, either live, or post studio processing where much trickery can be applied. My ears may well be audio deceived but I perceive seven positions: centre, left and right inside speaker, left and right speaker and left and right outside speaker. Few recordings hit all seven but a few do, including various naim samplers and toe-in alters this. For hard left hard right on most recordings I get a blend of at speaker and outside speaker with my setup anyway.

[Ivor]

Simon, I found another of those NAIM "soundstage" CDs and a Nordost system setup CD which I've just used to great effect to tweak speaker position.
I can drop it in or I'll be in Sandycove regularly if you can't wait!

[Diapason]

I'm having a variety, nay a smorgasbord, of issues to be dealing with at the moment, and anything that helps dial in speaker positioning would be useful. Massive bass problems, and I mean massive, recently ameloriated by putting the rack back a few inches. That floor is coming up, mark my words.

So yes, thank you, I'll pick it up from you in due course.