Blind Testing discussion - split from Quad Lamp7 thread

[nige2000]

if all competently made components pre speakers sound almost the same
what is the point of all the chopping and changing of components, experimentation etc if it doesn't matter so much

I certainly wouldnt say ALL components pre speaker sound almost the same. SS amps will sound different than valves. SET valve amps differ from other valve amps in the way they interact and behave with the speaker. For me the and I think a lot of people?, the critical component is the speaker and room combo. Next comes the amp and what type of amp. The further you go back down the chain the less significant differences there are between components. When you come to this point in the chain my own belief is that it's critical to level match in comparisons as even a few dbs of difference can often lead to the illusion that something is better, worse or different. Just my view on things.

the extremest view would be instead of hearing 57's you would have heard the room and everything from the wall socket to the speaker terminals as well as the speakers
but i guess 57's would sound exactly the same in your house as they did in tonys

When I speak of the 57s being the dominant factor in the sound I also include the room in that of course. No guarantee that placing Tony's complete system in my room would yield the same results. The sound immediately coming out of the speaker would be identical but by the time it reaches my ears at my listening position in my room it has already interacted with the room by bouncing off the carpet, walls, ceilings etc. That could make things better or worse.

i wouldn't disagree with that so much
but noise can spread like wildfire through the whole lot
so there can be a chain reaction

just think the differences are relatively obvious
we must set up blind testing to see if the three dacs/cdp can be correctly identified

i doubt exact level matching will be required

[Ivor]

For me the and I think a lot of people?, the critical component is the speaker and room combo. Next comes the amp and what type of amp. The further you go back down the chain the less significant differences there are between components.

I take the view that you'll always hear the weakest link in the chain, it might be an amp, mains, speakers or, God forbid, cables. That said level matching is vital is you're going to compare two pieces or equipment

[DaveF]

For me the and I think a lot of people?, the critical component is the speaker and room combo. Next comes the amp and what type of amp. The further you go back down the chain the less significant differences there are between components.

I take the view that you'll always hear the weakest link in the chain, it might be an amp, mains, speakers or, God forbid, cables. That said level matching is vital is you're going to compare two pieces or equipment

But would you apply the same importance or weighting to each of the links in the chain?
Take for example two systems: (Assume a neutral amp for the moment in both cases)
1. A Wadia feeding a pair of small B&W standmounts
2. An old Arcam CD72 feeding a pair of Sonus Faber Olympias

The B&W's and Arcam above would be considered the 'weakest' link in their respective systems but which would have the largest influence on the sound in your room. Surely the speakers? I realise its not always a black and white situation but building from the speaker/room backwards is the way to go I think.

I remember listening to Ciaran's mega system a few years back where we had the dCS, JKDAC and Squeezebox touch? feeding the Airtights/Kharmas. There certainly wasnt a huge gulf between the 3 sources. Differences yes, but the system still sounded fab. What if we swapped out speakers instead? Far bigger differences I would think.

[Ivor]

But would you apply the same importance or weighting to each of the links in the chain?
Take for example two systems: (Assume a neutral amp for the moment in both cases)
1. A Wadia feeding a pair of small B&W standmounts
2. An old Arcam CD72 feeding a pair of Sonus Faber Olympias

The B&W's and Arcam above would be considered the 'weakest' link in their respective systems but which would have the largest influence on the sound in your room. Surely the speakers? I realise its not always a black and white situation but building from the speaker/room backwards is the way to go I think.

I take your point but the end result in either combination is unsatisfactory sound. Frankly I do give near equal weight to each component. Going back to the old computer programming adage "garbage in = garbage out" and yes, without good speakers we'll only get garbage out anyway... I'm not saying one view is right and the other wrong... we all have our own way of judging/building a system. I've said many times it's all about synergy, it's when all the bits work together you get that magic.

[Ivor]

"blind testing is the last refuge of the agenda-driven scoundrel."
and my skepticism on blind testing is well aired here but I came across this yesterday. It's takes a few paragraphs to get going....

http://www.audiostream.com/content/blin ... envy-oh-my

And here's John Atkinson, Editor of Stereophile, from his highly recommended article Blind Listening:
But when you have taken part in a number of these blind tests and experienced how two amplifiers you know from personal experience to sound extremely different can still fail to be identified under blind conditions, then perhaps an alternative hypothesis is called for: that the very procedure of a blind listening test can conceal small but real subjective differences. Having taken part in quite a number of such blind tests, I have become convinced of the truth in this hypothesis. Over 10 years ago, for example, I failed to distinguish a Quad 405 from a Naim NAP250 or a TVA tube amplifier in such a blind test organized by Martin Colloms. Convinced by these results of the validity in the Consumer Reports philosophy, I consequently sold my exotic and expensive Lecson power amplifier with which I had been very happy and bought a much cheaper Quad 405—the biggest mistake of my audiophile career!
Some amplifiers which cannot be distinguished reliably under formal blind conditions do not sound similar over lengthy listening in more familiar and relaxed circumstances.

John Atkinson's full article "Blind Listening"
http://www.stereophile.com/features/113/index.html

[tony]

I see Ivor got in before me, Blind testing discussions I think belong in places like PFM.
We all know how difficult and tedious it would be to do a 'proper' blind test.

I be happy with the attempts I make and will take my chances on the decisions I make from those efforts. Wont be ramming my views down anyones throats because as my lookalike Clark Gable once said 'Frankly my dear I don't give a damn!

On a more serious note Dave advised as Fran and others have before to raise the 57's further. I ignored the Supertweeter advice for a period of time but eventually reacted maybe it is time to try out this adjustment.

[sima66]

I see Ivor got in before me, Blind testing discussions I think belong in places like PFM.
We all know how difficult and tedious it would be to do a 'proper' blind test.

I be happy with the attempts I make and will take my chances on the decisions I make from those efforts. Wont be ramming my views down anyones throats because as my lookalike Clark Gable once said 'Frankly my dear I don't give a damn!

On a more serious note Dave advised as Fran and others have before to raise the 57's further. I ignored the Supertweeter advice for a period of time but eventually reacted maybe it is time to try out this adjustment.

Around 18" will be the best high and in my experience a good super tweeters are a must with 57's. The tweeters are not improving only the highs and transparency, but also they give a much cleaner, better bass!

[tony]

Around 18" will be the best high and in my experience a good super tweeters are a must with 57's. The tweeters are not improving only the highs and transparency, but also they give a much cleaner, better bass!

You have JAS ST's I have never seen them advertised over here. How much are they secondhand in the states/canada?

I had really hoped the Audiosmile would work well but I had to concede they were just enamel removing even on low setting. Maybe I will try and get a listen to the townshends again at some point.

[nige2000]

Adam's tweeters do a good job

didn't mean blind testing pfm style more like pick a track play it on the three devices a b and c
then replay at random order without letting the audience the source
write results down

btw I'm not ramming anything
dave thinks there's little difference in these dacs/cdp
I think there's lots of difference with these similar to different Amps speakers etc
end of
no big deal

no need for ww3

[Ivor]

didn't mean blind testing pfm style more like pick a track play it on the three devices a b and c
then replay at random order without letting the audience the source
write results down

That generally works well with us, we all have good ears and I think we're pretty straight and honest in what we hear. As a group we have different preferences in what we look for in a system... this is a good thing!