Build a dedicated Audio PC

[tony]

The Wadia (simons) 861se

Tis a 581se, Tony, but since the 861se looks identical I forgive you!

Thanks Simon will do my best to remember going forward! The meridian sounded really nice but when you add the cost of the transport dac and pc to the equation it is getting up to meitner and wadia territory. The ciunas spdif through the lampizator is the one I am very curious to hear.
Next time hopefully.

Another point which I forgot about earlier. Lampizator uses same amanero board and drivers for the usb module as ciunas hence the Lampy was plug and play on our pc's. Strangely there was a electric glitches or noises prior to any music playing from the usb module. I think there is an issue there not sure if just with that dac or is it a config issue with the lampy.

[jkeny]

The meridian sounded really nice but when you add the cost of the transport dac and pc to the equation it is getting up to meitner and wadia territory. The ciunas spdif through the lampizator is the one I am very curious to hear.
Next time hopefully.

Maybe I can speed up this comparison by sending Maciej a Ciunas converter to try with the Lamp?
Maciej, if interested, PM me with your address

[tony]

Picked this up on Jplay forum from Josef.

'the real question is what does DAC driver supports – if there is no driver (most likely as it has only SPDIF in) then you'll need USB->SPDIF converter, yes: in fact, we recommend USB->SPDIF converter even for DACs with USB input as most don't sound as good via direct-USB….'

I think audio note have the same philosophy no usb allowed. Some guy called Aleg posted on that thread also wonder who he is! Maybe I should start a different thread on that. It is something I had never considered previously but the performance difference was very noticeable. Josef also seemed to favour the thesycon drivers which I never paid any attention to. The fact that buffers are adjustable plus I assume other stuff seems to be a positive. Meitner uses these? Nigel had a quick chap about it before leaving and the jist seemed to be that it is expensive. More than amanero?

[Aleg]

Your treading dangrous ground Tony :-() LOL, you should be glad I use the same monniker everywhere. That way you at least know who you're dealing with. But you don't have to start a thread about me Tony, though I would be flattered ;-).

I still stand by that a good usb/spdif converter can/will sound better than most USB-direct connections. Though I read Marcin now prefers USB-direct as he believes there are very good USB implementations now. Don't know which ones he refers to in that respect.

Thesycon are 'generally' regarded as the best USB-driver implementations. There are however some different version that allow more or less precise configuring. Latencies can either be set in absolute values in ms, or in other versions just as minimal, normal and high.
I prefer the first one as it gives the most control of the actual values and has the afvantage of not being dependent on sample rate like ones that set latency in terms of number of samples.

Cheers

ALEG

[nige2000]

i dont think its really as simple as spdif vs usb, likely more about their implementation

but id guess usb should be better in properly implemented dacs not those that were an after thought addition to spdif dac's

the amanero is very highly regarded at diya, as is the waveio (xmos) which uses thesycon drivers

its unlikely drivers are made with looney tunes like us in mind that want to push it to the limit

id like to be able to adjust the buffers and latency settings

[jkeny]

In one very important area asynchronous USB should be superior to SPDIF & that concerns the audio clocks.
In SPDIF the audio clock has to be recovered from the signal (data & clock are intermixed on one wire)
In asynchronous USB the audio clocks are usually situated in the USB receiving device & this clock is the master clock, controlling the sending rate of the data. So no embedded audio clock to recover & clock can be situated as close to the DAC chips as is possible.
Of course implementation is always important so good SPDIF can sound better than not so good USB implementation

[tony]

Will ask Fran to move this and name it the 'aleg spdif/usb thread' !
Probably worthy of a thread if only to help anybody else who might query it.Can't see it being found buried in the buildanaudiopc thread.
For clarity I was suggesting a new thread not for Aleg but for the subject but can see by rereading my original post Aleg might be a little concerned!

Would concur with views above I was posing the question as I always felt prior to hearing the meridian that adding a spdif was just more in the chain to create issues. But that did not prove to be the case on saturday. Compared to the usb output everything seemed to snap into place but again that could be as Nigel pointed out due to Maciej not using the usb input much. Maciej needs to comment on that to confirm. Don't disagree Nigel implementation is what matters(Sure Meitner is perfect example of that). But it would seem that spdif output on certain dacs might be the preferred option to use. If asked before this I would have plumbed for usb.

Take it amanero will not be rushing out a new driver with more tweaks than thesycon.

[jkeny]

Seb was asking me about this in Tony's on Saturday but I wasn't really sure what the question was.
As I said above there is a theoretically good reason why asynchronous USB (note asynchronous) should be superior to SPDIF as a transport mechanism for digital audio.

Asynchronous USB meaning that the USB receiver controls the data flow using a better clock than the one found in a PC. But more importantly, it buffers the digital data & uses an good quality audio clock to time the data out of the buffer.

SPDIF uses a communication protocol for digital audio that has the clock embedded along with the digital data running on a single wire. The clock has to be recovered from this signal by the SPDIF receiver.

On the other side of the argument, something like the Meridian has a much simpler power supply requirement than a PC so this should confer an advantage on CD/DVD Vs PC as a transport. So it boils down to which has the greater affect on the sound - the power supply or the better clocking. I would suggest that the power supply is the bigger influence as we saw when Seb changed the plugged the Meridian into the power regenerator & we all heard it's affect.

[DaveF]

So it boils down to which has the greater affect on the sound - the power supply or the better clocking.

I would say both are just as important as each other but PCB layout would probably have a say in which way it leans in a particular setup.
Came across something interesting in our own place during the week. We were getting these annoying 1MHz tones on the drive lines of a laser. We traced it down to a USB cable connecting the laser control board to a PC. It was a cheap enough USB cable mind and there was no data transmission occuring during the observations. We switched to another cable and voila, the noise tones disappeared. It certainly demonstrated to me how noisy PCs are and if not careful, that noise can find its way to outboard components.

[jkeny]

So it boils down to which has the greater affect on the sound - the power supply or the better clocking.

I would say both are just as important as each other but PCB layout would probably have a say in which way it leans in a particular setup.

Yep. agreed, the design & implementation will be the determining factor. My experience so far is that in the audio field the tendency is not to pay sufficient attention to PS & grounding.

Came across something interesting in our own place during the week. We were getting these annoying 1MHz tones on the drive lines of a laser. We traced it down to a USB cable connecting the laser control board to a PC. It was a cheap enough USB cable mind and there was no data transmission occuring during the observations. We switched to another cable and voila, the noise tones disappeared. It certainly demonstrated to me how noisy PCs are and if not careful, that noise can find its way to outboard components.

Interesting finding, Dave, thanks for relating this.

PS, I resume this USB cable was USB certified & transmitted digital audio accurately?