Blind Testing.....decisive and clear cut!!

[Diapason]

Should I try to add balance here or will I just leave it? :)

[Diapason]

Isn't life strange. I posted this and the very next thing I saw was a link to the following article:
http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2012/ ... 9.abstract

[Ivor]

Should I try to add balance here or will I just leave it? :)

Balance would be good!

my own view is that blind tastings are great fun (particularly when wine related) but they are not proof of anything. If I don't hear a difference in cables during a blind test does that mean I didn't hear a difference when sitting in my room listening "normally". I don't think it does... so while it might be interesting to do I don't believe the results are anything more than a talking point. Hopefully civilised.

As a budding audiophile I didn't expect cables to make a difference but they clearly did... do I need to carry out a semi scientific experiment in order to make sense of that? I don't feel I do.
I've heard computer audio and frankly I'd prefer if it didn't sound so bloody good but it does. If we are victims of preconception or bias then why did I like it so much? There's no denying the "bits is bits" brigade are way off on this one... and have been ever since the first CD players were discussed.
PS I'm still perfectly happy with CD and vinyl myself. For now.

[Diapason]

I don't really disagree with any of that on the face of it, Ivor. You know my feelings on this stuff: if you're enjoying what you're up to then it's the most ridiculous thing in the world to get het up over some keyboard warrior telling you you're wrong. This is, after all, meant to be fun, so find the fun where you can.

That said, there is a good question lurking underneath the objectivist posturing and it's a very simple one: if you have limited means (as most of us do) then where should you spend your money? And by that I mean, if you discover that you can't tell the difference between 2 cables for example when you don't know which one is attached, then is it really worth spending your money on differences you perceive in other methods? If a "night and day difference" collapses when you don't know what's playing, would you really want to pay good money for that difference?

Leaving aside the measurements, leaving aside the argument that things must sound the same because "science", leaving aside the arguments over even vs. odd order distortion and all that stuff, I think every so often we should all do what we say we want to do: let our ears decide. But that means REALLY letting our ears decide, without consideration of branding, shininess, audiophilia nervosa or any other thing. Basically, we should make a judgement purely on listening, without knowing what we're listening to. We shouldn't be afraid of this, we should be DELIGHTED to do this. If you can't hear a difference between 2 cables or whatever, then isn't it at least good to be aware? And if you CAN hear the difference when you don't know what's playing, then you can sleep easy in your bed.

Now of course, enjoyment of hifi is about more than just pure sonics, and everyone should do what they want, but why do we fear this testing so much? I've sat in dems where people swear blind (hah!) there's a massive difference, and I personally haven't heard it at all. The human brain is a funny thing, it's well-documented that perceptions are influenced by all kinds of things, denial of that fact is pointless.

So, in short, we shouldn't fear blind testing. We should use it as a tool to help us make good, informed decisions. As the only tool? Of course not, that would be stupid, we're here for enjoyment not lab experiments. I just don't understand railing against it at every turn.

Of course, I've never done a blind test on my own cables or whatever because quite simply I'd be afraid of the results. But I know this much: I have occasionally put back in a cable I replaced with a much more expensive one only to discover that, well, the previous cable sounds pretty damn good. Almost identical in fact...

[tony]

What a load of twaddle! I would never blind test in a million years sure I would be totally disoriented with a paper bag over my head and wouldn't trust my judgement. Down with this sort of post we want none of that here!! I have a good mind to report you to the bishop.

[Ivor]

Oh I don't fear blind tests at all, as I say they can be fun but what I do fear is (a) somebody gloating that the test has "proved" them right or worse still (b) finding that I didn't hear the differences I normally enjoy. The audiophile in me actively enjoys comparison of cables and components. Given that I listen to music via my humble ears I'm perfectly happy to rely on them to detect differences in a normal domestic setting. If blind test were the sterile controlled environment many supporters wish for then they wouldn't replicate the relaxed environment of one's listening room.
With wine I encourage customers to buy 6 random wines and then with friends or family try and guess which is the expensive one. If they want to try for grape/country/region then great but it should be a bit of fun. Wine, like music, is subjective.

[cybot]

I don't really disagree with any of that on the face of it, Ivor. You know my feelings on this stuff: if you're enjoying what you're up to then it's the most ridiculous thing in the world to get het up over some keyboard warrior telling you you're wrong. This is, after all, meant to be fun, so find the fun where you can.

That said, there is a good question lurking underneath the objectivist posturing and it's a very simple one: if you have limited means (as most of us do) then where should you spend your money? And by that I mean, if you discover that you can't tell the difference between 2 cables for example when you don't know which one is attached, then is it really worth spending your money on differences you perceive in other methods? If a "night and day difference" collapses when you don't know what's playing, would you really want to pay good money for that difference?

Leaving aside the measurements, leaving aside the argument that things must sound the same because "science", leaving aside the arguments over even vs. odd order distortion and all that stuff, I think every so often we should all do what we say we want to do: let our ears decide. But that means REALLY letting our ears decide, without consideration of branding, shininess, audiophilia nervosa or any other thing. Basically, we should make a judgement purely on listening, without knowing what we're listening to. We shouldn't be afraid of this, we should be DELIGHTED to do this. If you can't hear a difference between 2 cables or whatever, then isn't it at least good to be aware? And if you CAN hear the difference when you don't know what's playing, then you can sleep easy in your bed.

Now of course, enjoyment of hifi is about more than just pure sonics, and everyone should do what they want, but why do we fear this testing so much? I've sat in dems where people swear blind (hah!) there's a massive difference, and I personally haven't heard it at all. The human brain is a funny thing, it's well-documented that perceptions are influenced by all kinds of things, denial of that fact is pointless.

So, in short, we shouldn't fear blind testing. We should use it as a tool to help us make good, informed decisions. As the only tool? Of course not, that would be stupid, we're here for enjoyment not lab experiments. I just don't understand railing against it at every turn.

Of course, I've never done a blind test on my own cables or whatever because quite simply I'd be afraid of the results. But I know this much: I have occasionally put back in a cable I replaced with a much more expensive one only to discover that, well, the previous cable sounds pretty damn good. Almost identical in fact...

That's as good an argument I've seen in yonks and makes perfect sense. Well done Simon you've hit the nail squarely on the head.....whether we like it or not :)

[tony]

Off topic but cables even though I have reasonable ones and will at some point stick some sata etc cables in my pc no longer interest me. I have seen some really highly regarded ones come up for sale at seemingly great prices but would prefer spend the money on a component. I have often struggled to hear any differences between cables and went through a phase of thinking I could improve/change the characteristics of my speakers or system using cables. No longer I am now convinced free music software that changes every week does the trick. Sick as a parrot that Gordon reckons MQn development is nearly finished as I am afraid I will become cable infected again!
Oh I forgot to mention EMI paper definitely believe in that,must do a blind test with ordinary A4 and maybe newspaper.On second thoughts maybe not I don't want to know the answer!

[maxflinn]

I don't really disagree with any of that on the face of it, Ivor. You know my feelings on this stuff: if you're enjoying what you're up to then it's the most ridiculous thing in the world to get het up over some keyboard warrior telling you you're wrong. This is, after all, meant to be fun, so find the fun where you can.

That said, there is a good question lurking underneath the objectivist posturing and it's a very simple one: if you have limited means (as most of us do) then where should you spend your money? And by that I mean, if you discover that you can't tell the difference between 2 cables for example when you don't know which one is attached, then is it really worth spending your money on differences you perceive in other methods? If a "night and day difference" collapses when you don't know what's playing, would you really want to pay good money for that difference?

Leaving aside the measurements, leaving aside the argument that things must sound the same because "science", leaving aside the arguments over even vs. odd order distortion and all that stuff, I think every so often we should all do what we say we want to do: let our ears decide. But that means REALLY letting our ears decide, without consideration of branding, shininess, audiophilia nervosa or any other thing. Basically, we should make a judgement purely on listening, without knowing what we're listening to. We shouldn't be afraid of this, we should be DELIGHTED to do this. If you can't hear a difference between 2 cables or whatever, then isn't it at least good to be aware? And if you CAN hear the difference when you don't know what's playing, then you can sleep easy in your bed.

Now of course, enjoyment of hifi is about more than just pure sonics, and everyone should do what they want, but why do we fear this testing so much? I've sat in dems where people swear blind (hah!) there's a massive difference, and I personally haven't heard it at all. The human brain is a funny thing, it's well-documented that perceptions are influenced by all kinds of things, denial of that fact is pointless.

So, in short, we shouldn't fear blind testing. We should use it as a tool to help us make good, informed decisions. As the only tool? Of course not, that would be stupid, we're here for enjoyment not lab experiments. I just don't understand railing against it at every turn.

Of course, I've never done a blind test on my own cables or whatever because quite simply I'd be afraid of the results. But I know this much: I have occasionally put back in a cable I replaced with a much more expensive one only to discover that, well, the previous cable sounds pretty damn good. Almost identical in fact...

Well put.

[sima66]

Yeah, every day I'm getting more qualified for the "blind testing", actually only for the blind part!
I don't shutdown my system anymore, I just leave it on play non-stop, otherwise I can't find it the next day! ;-)