Bits-are-bits-brigade and why they are wrong

[mick]

John said,
' What is surprising is when a number of people independently hear pretty much the same characteristics in the sound. Now this is surprising if it is a delusion & NOT actually in the audio signal. The only way to explain this is through mass delusion where people confer on what they hear before they actually articulate it'.

The argument often used when listeners report hearing the same differences is that peer pressure was a factor. That people were afraid to be independent or that the result was because of a general expectation bias.
I gave a loan of USB cables to Nigel to see what he thought of them. He reported the same result as me in relation to the Kimber cable. It lacked detail,dynamics and had a flat sort of sound. Both of us came to the same conclusion with separate and completely different systems in different rooms. Are we both suffering from the same delusion.

[nige2000]

John said,
' What is surprising is when a number of people independently hear pretty much the same characteristics in the sound. Now this is surprising if it is a delusion & NOT actually in the audio signal. The only way to explain this is through mass delusion where people confer on what they hear before they actually articulate it'.

The argument often used when listeners report hearing the same differences is that peer pressure was a factor. That people were afraid to be independent or that the result was because of a general expectation bias.
I gave a loan of USB cables to Nigel to see what he thought of them. He reported the same result as me in relation to the Kimber cable. It lacked detail,dynamics and had a flat sort of sound. Both of us came to the same conclusion with separate and completely different systems in different rooms. Are we both suffering from the same delusion.

dont think thats going to help

theres clearly no one as deluded as me

[maxflinn]

It's all very well suggesting that some people are closed minded and only regurgitate the same tired old mantra, etc, but when it comes to all things digital, is there really much to learn?

Take a Blu-Ray disc and two different BDP's of varying price, say a budget Sony v the most expensive Sony.

Neither will enable a given TV to display a different image using the same disc, as the exact same information is read by both players and sent to the TV.

AVForums reviews of BDP's back this up, whereas of course the likes of What Hifi make stuff up.

What difference the audio data on a CD, or file? It is read and sent where it has to go and that's that.

A Blu-Ray player is simply a vehicle that enables exact digital instructions to get to a TV. Just as a CDP or PC enables exact digital instructions to get to a DAC.

Where is the potential for a better picture or better sound?

Some say that jitter and noise can affect a DAC and this may be audible. Well AFAIUI it would need to be a hell of a lot of jitter and noise to be audible.

So what could cause richer harmonics, a bigger soundstage, more detail, etc etc?

The answer isn't - go listen and you'll find out!

[jkeny]

It's all very well suggesting that some people are closed minded and only regurgitate the same tired old mantra, etc, but when it comes to all things digital, is there really much to learn?

There you go regurgitating the same old mantra, I'm afraid :) And you don't really understand or know what you are saying about "all things digital" - it's such a meaningless abstract phrase. I would try to teach you something about digital audio but I have seen people respond to you with sensible & important information about digital AUDIO (yes I'm shouting AUDIO) & you reject all attempts at educating you & reject any learning.

Yes, Tony, this is one of those abrupt posts of mine :) - as I simply don't have the time to waste with wasters.

[Ivor]

The answer isn't - go listen and you'll find out!

That's just what I did. I'm not going to bother with "science" in this reply as I listen with my ears. They're not always right but I trust them well enough.
From my first "basic" CD player to what i have today I've seen a clear difference and improvement with each one. Not subtle improvements either... quite clear ones. The last time I was shopping around for a CDP I was fortunate enough to have 4 reasonably "high end" players connected side by side, all into the same amps and speakers (I swapped around interconnects to allow for that). There were obvious differences between them. Levels of detail, bass, treble and soundstage being the most obvious differences. I had various friends in a different times too and I said nothing an just played the same reference tracks for everybody. We all came to the same broad conclusions. One player had less bass,one less detail, one sounded too sterile/digital. While listeners may have differed on which player they'd like to take home clearly there were differences in performance.

On the DVD player issue... again I can only offer personal experience. In a home cinema system I had both DVD and Blu ray players (the DVD was also a DVR so I retained it). Simply because of a mislaid remote we started using the blu ray player for DVDs as well... it was obvious to everyone (i.e. people who don't really care about such things!) that picture and, even more obviously, sound was much improved through the blu ray player. They were the same brand and much the same age.

The phrase "Bits is bits" is catchy enough to have a following and taken in isolation is probably true but... when applied to CD players, DVD players and computer audio simply doesn't stand up to critical listening.

[tony]

It's all very well suggesting that some people are closed minded and only regurgitate the same tired old mantra, etc, but when it comes to all things digital, is there really much to learn?

There you go regurgitating the same old mantra, I'm afraid :) And you don't really understand or know what you are saying about "all things digital" - it's such a meaningless abstract phrase. I would try to teach you something about digital audio but I have seen people respond to you with sensible & important information about digital AUDIO (yes I'm shouting AUDIO) & you reject all attempts at educating you & reject any learning.

Yes, Tony, this is one of those abrupt posts of mine :) - as I simply don't have the time to waste with wasters.

Nothing abrupt there John very restrained considering the way maxiflinn operates and has posted concerning yourself elsewhere. I was tracked on a thread with the same banal one liners that try to pass as considered knowledge but it is very clear there is no depth to the knowledge or message there. If one just re reads the threads and look at the content in John's replies and the 'nothing' in the replies it is embarrassing. Claus this is what you will get if you get involved in a thread on your Danish forum except they generally hunt in packs. To be fair maxiflinn is quiet restrained here but I know his form well.

[mick]

If I hear a difference in audio pc components instead of telling me I cant because science says so,
science should try to find an explanation as to why I hear the difference.
Is that not the purpose of science

[tony]

If I hear a difference in audio pc components instead of telling me I cant because science says so,
science should try to find an explanation as to why I hear the difference.

Placebo or peer pressure or expectation bias .You be suffering from one of those illnesses. Happens all the time I don't think the VHI provide cover for it so you are bunched once caught

[maxflinn]

If I hear a difference in audio pc components instead of telling me I cant because science says so,
science should try to find an explanation as to why I hear the difference.
Is that not the purpose of science

Exactly, but explanations are extremely rare, what's more likely is you'll be told you're either a troublemaker, troll, closed minded, etc etc if you ask somebody who purports to be an authority for the answer.

I've asked some questions earlier today and these are the kind of answers I got.

Go figure.

[jkeny]

If I hear a difference in audio pc components instead of telling me I cant because science says so,
science should try to find an explanation as to why I hear the difference.
Is that not the purpose of science

Exactly, but explanations are extremely rare, what's more likely is you'll be told you're either a troublemaker, troll, closed minded, etc etc if you ask somebody who purports to be an authority for the answer.

I've asked some questions earlier today and these are the kind of answers I got.

Go figure.

You've asked the same questions & been answered correctly on other sites.
Don't come here & pretend to be all innocent & hard done by - "a poor inquisitive soul looking for answers & being picked on" - we know your form, Maxflinn - you are a troll.