dhyantyke wrote:I feel I should probably change name to 'TGUW' (The Great Unwashed) or just 'Phillistinus', but what is it about 'people' that is so amazing?
Firstly, please don't feel like that. No-one who posts over here in the classical section would for a minute set themselves up to be in any way 'superior' because of their music tastes; indeed most of us a just learners.
Simon was however pointing out a sad irony which tends to affect classical music quite a bit, and it is this.
Thomas Tallis' 'Spem in alium' for 40 voices is considered to be one of the very finest pieces of music written during the 16th Century and most members who post here have long felt that it deserves to be better known today.
Over the past 20 years, it has received superlative recordings by several high quality choirs who principally sing music from the Renaissance period, such at The Tallis Scholars who are mentioned in the article Simon mentioned, and yet no matter how great the exposure they try to give it, because of their limited resources to reach a mass market, it continues to remain in the sphere of the minority...
.... until now that is. The piece gets mentioned favourably within the pages of some passing soft porn fad, and the world lines up like sheep to buy or download it. Whilst we are all delighted that Sia has reached a wider audience, I think we'd all rather it had done so via another avenue.
Having taken a step back for a few hours, here is a more considered offering:
I come from a cultural background where classical music has little place: if anything CM defines in a way who/what we are not. i.e. "CM belongs to a cultural/social/financial elite."
The world of classical music at times feels like an impenetrable edifice because of the sheer volume and diversity of the work. Even for those who (like myself) would like to know more. How do the uninitiated get a purchase or 'handle' on it?
This is certainly my experience and I know the experience of many others.....and I think I am speaking of the majority here.
One of the points of access has been sacred music... being of the generation who served Mass in Latin I have always loved and been transported by such music, and indeed find the images conjured by Jared's beautiful contribution a familiar territory. Ironically, SIA was one of the very few pieces of music I 'owned' since a young man.
Another point of access to CM is through 'popular culture'.....films,drama,TV, advertising etc. You hear something you like, and follow the trail.... seems legitimate to me?
Indeed, on that topic, one of my few contributions to the CM forum was as a result of encountering the wonderful Requiem of Faure which featured briefly in a BBC drama series. On that occasion I was greatly encouraged/informed by Fergus' generous posting on the subject with overview and descriptions/critique of some of the many varied recordings of the work. So I am now enjoying the Gardiner recording..
I am sure many have been introduced to opera in a digestable doses through the detective series 'Morse'. I was. Coincidentally, I was listening to some Puccini Arias as I read the original posting!!
For various reasons, it is only in my mid/late fifties that I have the opportunity/time/resources to explore and enjoy music (of any type) in any depth. With CM, I find some of it I love, lots of it I don't like/understand/appreciate. I had considered this forum a place where someone with as little knowledge as myself but a certain openness might ask a question or follow a lead: indeed this has been my experience(as above)
I was a bit defensive at the thought that my/similar attempts from a position of ignorance and naivety might be a source of 'amazement'.....but maybe I got the wrong end of the stick...
^^ firstly, I think I would echo the views of everyone from the CM dept, when I say a big 'thank you!' for your honesty in writing the above post. We have all been where you are now at one time or another (some of us not very long ago at all), most of us not having been brought up in a home where classical music was regularly played.
as a consequence, no-one sits in judgement on anyone else here, and we all adopt the approach that we learn from and gain enthusiasm from each other. It is undeniable that Classical Music has garnered a rather elitist reputation in some quarters, which we all feel is regrettable because what is broadly lumped together today as 'classical' really encompases over 800 years of the development of music within the Western sphere, which should as a consequence be accessible for everyone. No-one here listens to CM because they think it is the sort of thing they *should* be listening to, but because they have over time developed a deep seated love for it and enjoy the company of others who feel the same.
I was brought up in a house where music of any kind was very rarely played; Radio 4 and the spoken word were King. Although I went to a Grammar School, CM was never very high on the agenda, and once my voice broke and I left the school choir, my access to CM became very limited indeed. As a consequence, I have grown up listening to Rock music with a particular liking for Progressive Rock of the Genesis, Yes & Marillion kind, and it has only been within the past 4-5 years that my discovery of CM has really taken hold. Because others here would be able to tell you similar stories, we tend to be supportive because it would be laughable if we tried to be elitist!
I will come to the subject of Choral Music in my next post....
dhyantyke wrote:For various reasons, it is only in my mid/late fifties that I have the opportunity/time/resources to explore and enjoy music (of any type) in any depth. With CM, I find some of it I love, lots of it I don't like/understand/appreciate...
I'll start with your 2nd sentence, first. Every one of us here is, to a greater or lesser extent, in a similar position. The genre of CM after all is so vast that very few people love absolutely everything they hear, however what we have all tended to find is that with the passing of time, as we become more familiar with a certain soundworld, the boundaries expand somewhat, so that material you once found fairly impenetrable becomes increasingly more accessible as you begin to understand it.
Let me give you an example. The gentleman who introduced me to CM several years ago, lived down the road from me and let me magpie his collection every Sunday for new material. One week very early on, I borrowed Schubert's 'Winterreise' and simply couldn't understand why he thought it was one of the finest things ever written by any composer of any generation. Now, this was all my own fault because I remember that a month into listening to CM, he did raise an eyebrow over the wisdom of me listening to it so soon, but I can be fairly strong willed. In reality of course, I should have been concentrating on Beethoven's Symphonies, because although German lieder (songs) are magnificent, they are a long way from the soundworld we normally inhabit and therefore require a certain amount of acclimatisation.
So, to your first sentence. Everyone here will agree in unison that there has never been a better time than now to embark on a voyage of discovery of all things classical, as access to the medium has never been more open! It was only 10 years ago that single disks by top artists were uniformly selling for £13 each, making the building of a library a somewhat middle-class occupation, however with the advent of the intrawebz, you can listen to a wide selection of works on Youtube before purchasing a disk for less than half the amount stated above... CM has never been more blue-collar!
I guess this will be the most contentious aspect, because everyone will have their own views on this depending on their interests, so I will keep it based on my personal experiences.
I think many people tend to initiate themselves by listening to orchestral music first, because there is an irony that the more instruments playing, the easier it is to get a handle on the shape of the music. after a broad brushstroke intro across basic orchestral repertoire, people often then gravitate to signature chamber pieces (music typically written for 2-8 instruments), before gravitating to Instrumental music (such as piano sonatas or cello suites) where higher levels of concentration are (in my own experience) required.
My experience with choral music has been similar; I started with larger scale choral works, then oratorios (combination of choir and soloists) before moving on to the single voice. I noticed in your post that you expressed an enjoyment of some choral works, so I will give you a very short list of 5 works to try out, to see whether they chime with you:
Victoria: Requiem
Pergolesi: Stabat Mater
Handel: Dixit Dominus
Mozart: Requiem
Beethoven: Missa Solemnis
Now, I'm sure you'll appreciate that if you asked everyone on this forum to name 5 choral works for you to investigate, you'd get very few duplications... the same would go for Orchestral, Chamber, Instrumental, Song and indeed Opera! It would therefore be my suggestion that you started your own listening thread in the forum, jotted down your thoughts and asked the forum members to give you 'Where to Next'? suggestions... I'm sure everyone would be delighted to help.
Right, I had decided I wasn't bothered to respond earlier, but given your update I'm happy to clarify my original point, and I can assure you it's nothing to do with classical music snobbery per se.
I'm constantly astounded by "people's" willingness to buy whatever is fashionable, whatever pops up in the media, and basically whatever they're told is cool. I don't "get" fashion. For example, I never understand why women (generally women anyway) walk around in stuff that makes them look ridiculous merely because it's fashionable. Back in the days of the Levi's ads, I never got why people rushed out to buy whatever song was being featured in the new ad. Every time it was guaranteed to be number one, every time.
From the few excerpts I've read of Fifty Shades, I truly don't understand its popularity, other than people seem to be buying it because everyone else is buying it. Throw in the fact that people are buying music that only gets a MENTION in this book, and colour me gobsmacked. It's nothing to do with Tallis, I'd feel the same way if it was Megadeth. I hope that a few people, or indeed many people, enjoy what they hear enough to explore further, even if fashion moves on instantly.
On the wider point, I think it's an awful awful shame that classical music is considered to be elitest, inaccessible, only for toffs, etc. My experience on the ground, so to speak, is that it's anything but, and it pisses me off royally when this stereotype is encouraged. The people I see learning classical music and attending classical music concerts are of all ages and all walks of life. Sure, the grey-haired BMW-driving fraternity is perhaps more-in-evidence at the NCH, but the NCH is not the only place to listen to classical in Ireland. Frankly, classical music is as accessible as any other genre, outside of the top 40. Turn on the radio: there it is. Listen away, and if you enjoy it, great! If you don't, not to worry, there'll be another piece along shortly that you may prefer. Access is not an issue. Inclination is all that's standing in anybody's way.
The idea that classical music is only for rich people is another load of shite. You can go see a live classical music concert tonight for €5, or €10, or €20, or for the very best performers in the world, maybe €100-odd. It's exactly the same as a rock concert. Go to Whelan's and see up-and-coming artists for a fiver, go to the RDS and see Bruce Springsteen for whatever the hell he's charging these days. Classical CDs/downloads are available as cheaply or even cheaper than every other genre I can think of. Free music is available all over youtube. Cost is not an issue.
So ultimately, what's holding people back? Well, it's an enormous world, I'll grant you that, but looked at another way, that only makes things easier. Just dive in! Contrary to popular belief, enjoying classical music doesn't require any special skills or knowledge, it just requires ears and an open mind. It also requires that people drop whatever reverse snobbery may linger in their minds, and they need to lose the sense that it's for "other people". It isn't. It's for everyone. You don't have to like everything you hear, any more than you have to like every song on the radio. "Classical Music" covers about a millenium, you can't expect to enjoy all of it. But you won't enjoy any of it if you don't try it.
Nerdcave: ...is no more! Sitting Room: Wadia 581SE - Rega Planar 3/AT VM95ML & SH - Bluesound Node II - Copland CSA 100 - Audioplan Kontrast 3 Kitchen: WiiM Pro - Wadia 151 - B&W 685s2
dhyantyke wrote:I was a bit defensive at the thought that my/similar attempts from a position of ignorance and naivety might be a source of 'amazement'.....but maybe I got the wrong end of the stick...
Definitely not, Jared, Darren and I have only recently started listening to Classical Music. I can trace my start back to August 2007 when I bought the Stravinsky 22 cd set and I have never looked back ever since.
The world of recorded classical music is massive and I think that one gains greatly from joining a forum like this one and asking questions, that's how I got started, by doing so it enables one to build a music collection based on the advice that one receives from fellow members; what brings us all here is a love of music and the willingness to share our passion with those who have the patience to read what we write about it. If we disagree with what a fellow member says we will always treat them with courtesy too.
Please do not hesitate to ask any questions you may have no matter how basic they may seem to you at the time, that's how I got started, not here but on CMG (but that's another story).
Last edited by Seán on Fri Sep 07, 2012 12:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"To appreciate the greatness of the Masters is to keep faith in the greatness of humanity." - Wilhelm Furtwängler
Yes, and with my moderator hat on, I'd have to say that any post that smacks of looking down on another poster's knowledge (or even taste) will probably be deleted, or at the very least flagged as unacceptable round here. That's not how we roll!
Nerdcave: ...is no more! Sitting Room: Wadia 581SE - Rega Planar 3/AT VM95ML & SH - Bluesound Node II - Copland CSA 100 - Audioplan Kontrast 3 Kitchen: WiiM Pro - Wadia 151 - B&W 685s2
