Proposed Jazz Thread

[fergus]

Some time ago now a member here was very good to me and sent me a number of DVDs that he had copied of various Jazz concerts and performances from his vast collection. I enjoyed them at the time and still do. However, there is a problem and the problem is me and Jazz. Although I really appreciate the performances of the various musicians on the above mentioned DVDs I essentially do not really understand the music. The medium of Jazz has always eluded me although I think that I teeter on the edge of comprehension without ever crossing that elusive line of real appreciation.

I think that Seán’s suggestion of a thread something along the lines of the Classical Music Listening projects would benefit me enormously. I need to get to grips with the fundamentals of the medium; I need to get in at the bottom and work my way up. If someone could start with something like “A Jazz Starter Kit” that would be most welcome. I personally would not like to start with the esoteric stuff because I simply do not understand it. I need to get to grips with the basics of the language of Jazz and build from there. I should also like to point out that I will not necessarily go out and buy this music so lots of YouTube videos would be great so that one can make up one’s mind before one commits oneself. I am prepared to work at this and it is a project that I have set myself for 2013. It should be an interesting journey!

[jaybee]

Maybe we could start a tirnahifi spotify playlist (for Jazz or CM listening projects?)

[markof]

Maybe we could start a tirnahifi spotify playlist (for Jazz or CM listening projects?)

Love this idea, big thumbs-up.

[tony]

Some time ago now a member here was very good to me and sent me a number of DVDs that he had copied of various Jazz concerts and performances from his vast collection. I enjoyed them at the time and still do. However, there is a problem and the problem is me and Jazz. Although I really appreciate the performances of the various musicians on the above mentioned DVDs I essentially do not really understand the music. The medium of Jazz has always eluded me although I think that I teeter on the edge of comprehension without ever crossing that elusive line of real appreciation.

I think that Seán’s suggestion of a thread something along the lines of the Classical Music Listening projects would benefit me enormously. I need to get to grips with the fundamentals of the medium; I need to get in at the bottom and work my way up. If someone could start with something like “A Jazz Starter Kit” that would be most welcome. I personally would not like to start with the esoteric stuff because I simply do not understand it. I need to get to grips with the basics of the language of Jazz and build from there. I should also like to point out that I will not necessarily go out and buy this music so lots of YouTube videos would be great so that one can make up one’s mind before one commits oneself. I am prepared to work at this and it is a project that I have set myself for 2013. It should be an interesting journey!

Would like a look at some of those dvd's Fergus at some point. This is a great idea. TBH I have just looked at Sean's posts and taken a punt on some of the stuff. Delighted with a huge percentage of it. It seems very hard to go wrong if peterson,getz and davis is in the title. Most of the stuff I have got really love it.Coltrane for whatever reason doesn't do it for me. Look forward to what comes from this.

[Gerry D]

I was drawn to Jazz in my teens. By references in Beat Movement and French and Japanese philosophical literature.
At that time, amongst my cohorts, Jazz was odd, hard going and not hip.
Unless it was Jazzzzz like Sade, Nina. (My baby just cares) or suchlike. I also like those. Still.
When people would ask me to explain, describe or defend jazz I never could.
People would ask if I also liked classical music ? I'd say that it hadn't ever really grabbed me.
I've read some great positive statements by jazz fans here. Where a cut is recommended as something to enjoy. I like that. And I occasionally post my own recommendations.

But I've also read some overlong bullshit diatribes on the subject from someone that I could never "dig".
Oh yeah. There's some terrible snobbery comes with some jazz 'experts'.
It seeps onto this forum occasionally.
Ages ago I wondered why jazz was so hard for me to define.
Then I read this... "You can't explain Jazz to anyone without losing the experience because it's feeling, not words." Bill Evans

Anyway. Good luck with the thread. Happy Christmas.
I like the Spotify idea though.

[cybot]

I was drawn to Jazz in my teens. By references in Beat Movement and French and Japanese philosophical literature.
At that time, amongst my cohorts, Jazz was odd, hard going and not hip.
Unless it was Jazzzzz like Sade, Nina. (My baby just cares) or suchlike. I also like those. Still.
When people would ask me to explain, describe or defend jazz I never could.
People would ask if I also liked classical music ? I'd say that it hadn't ever really grabbed me.
I've read some great positive statements by jazz fans here. Where a cut is recommended as something to enjoy. I like that. And I occasionally post my own recommendations.

But I've also read some overlong bullshit diatribes on the subject from someone that I could never "dig".
Oh yeah. There's some terrible snobbery comes with some jazz 'experts'.
It seeps onto this forum occasionally.
Ages ago I wondered why jazz was so hard for me to define.
Then I read this... "You can't explain Jazz to anyone without losing the experience because it's feeling, not words." Bill Evans

Anyway. Good luck with the thread. Happy Christmas.
I like the Spotify idea though.

Beautifully put Gerry! And the same applies to all music IMO. I can only speak for myself when I say this. The discovery of music is a journey. Good and bad. The excitement of the 'discovery' that speaks to you and no one else. I don't want anyone else, whether they are experts or otherwise, to tell me what's good or bad. Good/great music is impossible to clarify in any coherent way. Most times I've acted on a recommendation or something I liked the sound of, on the radio for instance, and I've invariably been disappointed. Not every time but most....Then there's people like Paul (mcq) who can really articulate what's going on in the music and still, despite the overwhelming evidence to the contrary, you still end up being disappointed for whatever reason! And yet if you give it time only then will it start to make sense.....Read the posts by Jared and Darren over on the CM thread and you can really feel their total frustration in articulating what the music is about. Sometimes it feels too much like homework! And that's not to denigrate the gargantuan efforts of those who've tried. Just my tuppence worth....

[Seán]

I think that Seán’s suggestion of a thread something along the lines of the Classical Music Listening projects would benefit me enormously. I need to get to grips with the fundamentals of the [Jazz] medium; I need to get in at the bottom and work my way up.

That’s a very difficult task. Where does one start?

If someone could start with something like “A Jazz Starter Kit” that would be most welcome. I personally would not like to start with the esoteric stuff because I simply do not understand it. I need to get to grips with the basics of the language of Jazz and build from there. I should also like to point out that I will not necessarily go out and buy this music so lots of YouTube videos would be great so that one can make up one’s mind before one commits oneself. I am prepared to work at this and it is a project that I have set myself for 2013. It should be an interesting journey!

Fergus, here’s a suggestion or rather a series of them. I will create one or more CDs with a theme to assist you on your journey. If you find music that you really like I will be more than happy to assist you in exploring it further

1) An introduction to Duke Ellington’s music from 1927 to 1974 this will include snippets from several of his suites except for The Shakespearean Suite and the New Orleans Suite as you already have these.

OR

2) An introduction to Big Band Jazz with music from, for example, Count Basie, Woody Herman, Gil Evans, Bill Holman, Tadd Dameron, Kenny Clarke & Fancy Boland, Don Ellis, Buddy Rich, Thad Jones & Mel Lewis, Bob Brookmeyer, Vanguard Jazz Orchestra, Maria Schneider et al.

OR

3) An introduction to the Tenor Saxophone in Jazz with Coleman Hawkins, Lester Young, Don Byas, Ben Webster, Sonny Rollins, Hank Mobly, Dexter Gordon, Zoot Sims, Stan Getz, Oliver Nelson, Roland Kirk, Eddie 'Lockjaw' Davis, Frank Wess, John Coltrane, Yusef Lateef, Don Menza, Joe Farrell, Jan Garbarek et al.

OR

4) An introduction to my personal favourites with Duke Ellington, Charles Mingus, Stan Getz, Zoot Sims, Oliver Nelson, The Modern Jazz Quartet, Bill Holman, Clark Terry, Thad Jones & Mel Lewis, Miles Davis, Art Pepper, Thelonious Monk, Paul Desmond, New York Jazz Quartet and a few more too.

OR
None of the above and perhaps an exploration of one or more artists of your choosing?

[fergus]

PM sent Seán.

[mcq]

I really understand and sympathise with anybody trying to penetrate the world of jazz music. It is difficult because it sounds like a completely different sound world to much of the popular music that surrounds us. Personally, I have vivid memories of struggling in the same way with new music in my early teens. Like many young people, my first love was rock music and my curiosity about exploring different avenues within that genre led me to Frank Zappa who proved to be a pivotal influence on me. I adored his music and I read every article about him in an effort to find out what inspired him. In time, this introduced me to Edgard Varese, Igor Stravinsky and Anton Webern in classical music and to Wes Montgomery, Charles Mingus and Eric Dolphy in jazz. I think my first purchases were Pierre Boulez conducting the London Symphony Orchestra in music by Varese and Charles Mingus's Mingus Ah Um. What really struck me was how alien all of this sounded. It was only out of a sense of commitment to Zappa that I persisted with this music. The first few listens of each CD bore little real fruit and I would return gladly to my familiar rock music which I more readily "understood". But then I would listen to something by Zappa I really loved - I think it was The Grand Wazoo, a jazz-rock influenced big-band effort - and I would read an interview by Zappa in which he would expand passionately on how much he owed Mingus or Wes Montgomery and I found myself inspired and moved by his words. Quite simply, I had to return to the music I was struggling with and persist until I felt that I understood it (to some degree, at least). I listened and struggled with that music and, gradually, I began to feel more at ease with these strange new musical environments. And as I felt progressively more comfortable with this new sound world, I began to explore it more dilligently. What I learned from listening to those two CDs was considerable both in terms of expanding my knowledge of the music I already loved, but also in terms of opening so many more doors in music.

Three important points come to mind. Firstly, when listening to new music, try not to actively concentrate on the music too much initially. This enagages the subconscious which more readily aids in the unconscious absorption of music. Secondly, you will - quite naturally - gravitate to certain artists and recordings more than others. Try and identify what it is you dislike in the music you are resisting and make an effort to persist with it. In classical music, many people have a comfort zone with 19th century Romanticism and never really engage with, for example, 20th century music or the glories of 15th and 16th century vocal polyphony. Similarly, many jazz fans gravitate to piano trios or Blue Note hard bop (for example) from the Fifties/Sixties and never really look elsewhere. Finally, dismiss all concepts of "cool" and "uncool" music, which are just as damaging as the dividing lines of "good" and "bad" music. It can be difficult to shrug off dimissive responses from friends and family about a particular kind of music and it is much easier to listen to something that is more socially acceptable. But few things in life are as rewarding as music and it seems wrong to submit to a narrow definition of something that potentially offers a genuine creative enlargement of the world around us.

[Seán]

Lovely piece Paul, well done.

few things in life are as rewarding as music

and that's a fact!