transformer build thread

jkeny
Posts: 2387
Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2010 9:37 pm

Re: transformer build thread

Post by jkeny »

nige2000 wrote:
jkeny wrote:
nige2000 wrote:

Yep, Amanero but anyway a split secondary gives us more options than just balanced or single ended - we can use one side or both side in series or both sides used in parallel.
split secondary not the same as center tapped?
That's the way I understand it.
is inversion an option in current firmware?
dont remember seeing that
It's something I worked on with Domenico but he doesn't provide much explanation for all those downloadable firmware versions in the OEMTool.

I can privately give you details if you like but can't guarantee that they work with all configurations i.e with external master clocks used in reclocking
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abraxalito
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Joined: Fri Sep 16, 2016 11:05 pm

Re: transformer build thread

Post by abraxalito »

So what are y'all wanting help with now? DAC or trafo design?

Assuming we have a bobbin which allows us enough pins, seems 2 and 4VRMS on the primary and 1 and 2VRMS on the secondary is a decent working start. This could mean either totally separate windings or CT on both sides (depending on how many pins there are).

Seeing as this trafo will most likely have to use PC40 material (which isn't very high mu) then I'll design the trafo to accept 100% overvoltage as this is a way to increase the inductance. So the saturation spec will be 8V on the primary and 4V on the secondary. But best used as 4V and 2V to present an acceptable load to the driving circuit.

Next step - see if all the wire can fit onto a PQ20/20 core...

Incidentally this morning I discovered some incredibly small permalloy cored trafos which have more inductance (1.2H) than those cited earlier. They're also a fair bit more expensive (but still cheap for trafos) - https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a2 ... =13#detail
jkeny
Posts: 2387
Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2010 9:37 pm

Re: transformer build thread

Post by jkeny »

abraxalito wrote:So what are y'all wanting help with now? DAC or trafo design?
We're a needy, inquisitive bunch :)
Assuming we have a bobbin which allows us enough pins, seems 2 and 4VRMS on the primary and 1 and 2VRMS on the secondary is a decent working start. This could mean either totally separate windings or CT on both sides (depending on how many pins there are).

Seeing as this trafo will most likely have to use PC40 material (which isn't very high mu) then I'll design the trafo to accept 100% overvoltage as this is a way to increase the inductance. So the saturation spec will be 8V on the primary and 4V on the secondary. But best used as 4V and 2V to present an acceptable load to the driving circuit.

Next step - see if all the wire can fit onto a PQ20/20 core...
Sounds good
Incidentally this morning I discovered some incredibly small permalloy cored trafos which have more inductance (1.2H) than those cited earlier. They're also a fair bit more expensive (but still cheap for trafos) - https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a2 ... =13#detail
Good find but is 600:600 of use to us?
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abraxalito
Posts: 230
Joined: Fri Sep 16, 2016 11:05 pm

Re: transformer build thread

Post by abraxalito »

600:600 doesn't tell us very much (or at least doesn't tell me very much) but the primary inductance of 1.2H is about 4X that of those you found (290mH was it?). So these do have some reasonable hope of being driven by a normal linestage.
jkeny
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Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2010 9:37 pm

Re: transformer build thread

Post by jkeny »

abraxalito wrote:600:600 doesn't tell us very much (or at least doesn't tell me very much) but the primary inductance of 1.2H is about 4X that of those you found (290mH was it?). So these do have some reasonable hope of being driven by a normal linestage.
OK, let me try to understand - the inductance is a measure of the transfer of power across the primary to secondary - the higher the inductance the better the transfer?
I'm trying to get my head around all the various specs of a trafo as regards their effect & significance for design
What have we got with trafos:
- inductance = power transfer?
- turns ratio = gain or reduction or none?
- wire size = current carrying ability
- core size = frequency response??
- core material = frequency response?
I know I've missed many..... copper losses, eddy currents, leakage inductance, more....?

And the multitude of effects that trafos bring:
- voltage gain or reduction
- current gain or reduction?
- galvanic isolation
- impedance conversion

So with the 600:600 trafo with 290mH Vs 1.2H inductance, the second one would better transfer power across the windings resulting in a higher current for a given voltage?
Similarly voltage gain comes with current reduction, so the power is equal on both sides (apart from any other power losses)?
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abraxalito
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Re: transformer build thread

Post by abraxalito »

jkeny wrote: OK, let me try to understand - the inductance is a measure of the transfer of power across the primary to secondary - the higher the inductance the better the transfer?
No, not quite. The inductance is parasitic - with a perfect transformer the inductance would be infinite and the only load the source would see would be the load impedance, transformed by the square of the turns ratio. With a real world transformer the inductance (its a shunt inductance, in parallel with the primary) isn't infinite so this means even with no load at all the transformer is going to draw current from the source. The current rises as the frequency goes down, in line with the impedance of an inductor. A 1H inductance represents about 300ohms reactance at 50Hz.
I'm trying to get my head around all the various specs of a trafo as regards their effect & significance for design
What have we got with trafos:
- inductance = power transfer?
- turns ratio = gain or reduction or none?
- wire size = current carrying ability
- core size = frequency response??
- core material = frequency response?
I know I've missed many..... copper losses, eddy currents, leakage inductance, more....?
Your equations are more in line with a transformer for power transmission, yet here we're dealing only with signals. So things look a little different

inductance = how heavy a load the source sees, particularly at low frequencies (bass)
turns ratio = how much load impedance transformation occurs
wire size = inversely related to the series resistance presented by the transformer
core size = sensitivity to hum pickup
core material = lots of factors relate to this including inductance and also stray capacitance

Losses are not of much interest in signal transformer applications (eddy currents are part of losses, ferrite doesn't have them because its an insulator but there are other core losses) and leakage inductance tends to be more of an issue in power transformers (where the load impedance is low to maximize power transfer).
And the multitude of effects that trafos bring:
- voltage gain or reduction
- current gain or reduction?
- galvanic isolation
- impedance conversion
Yep those are the key functions which trafos help to implement.
So with the 600:600 trafo with 290mH Vs 1.2H inductance, the second one would better transfer power across the windings resulting in a higher current for a given voltage?
No the second one will be less likely to make the opamp stage driving it run into current limiting (aka heavy distortion) at low frequencies. Or even if current limiting is avoided a lower inductance value is going to impact the driving circuit's power supplies to a greater extent, corrupting the LF (bass) quality of the music.
jkeny
Posts: 2387
Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2010 9:37 pm

Re: transformer build thread

Post by jkeny »

abraxalito wrote:
jkeny wrote: OK, let me try to understand - the inductance is a measure of the transfer of power across the primary to secondary - the higher the inductance the better the transfer?
No, not quite.
Thanks, that explains things well & makes perfect sense.
I never quite hit the bullseye but I stumble on, anyway although I was thinking in terms of signal transformers :)
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nige2000
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Location: meath

Re: transformer build thread

Post by nige2000 »

jkeny wrote: It's something I worked on with Domenico but he doesn't provide much explanation for all those downloadable firmware versions in the OEMTool.

I can privately give you details if you like but can't guarantee that they work with all configurations i.e with external master clocks used in reclocking
the oemtool is a bit like wandering around in the dark looking for the light switch

had you got it working ?

need to see if i have an amanero that's not attached to something i want to keep complete......
sd card player, modded soekris dac, class a lifepo4 amp or gb class a/b amp, diy open baffle speakers based on project audio mundorf trio 10's
jkeny
Posts: 2387
Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2010 9:37 pm

Re: transformer build thread

Post by jkeny »

nige2000 wrote:
jkeny wrote: It's something I worked on with Domenico but he doesn't provide much explanation for all those downloadable firmware versions in the OEMTool.

I can privately give you details if you like but can't guarantee that they work with all configurations i.e with external master clocks used in reclocking
the oemtool is a bit like wandering around in the dark looking for the light switch
I know - it's frustrating & Domenico mostly won't document what the various firmwares are for & what the dependencies are between CPU & CPLD firmware versions
had you got it working ?

need to see if i have an amanero that's not attached to something i want to keep complete......
If you want to experiment I'll send you on my correspondence with Dom & help you as much as I can? I will have to look back over my notes to remember where I left off - not sure if it was working 100% i.e when using external reclocking which was what I wanted. It seemed that it was one step forward & two steps back all the time with different revisions until I eventually got too frustrated but maybe it was just me?
www.Ciunas.biz
For Digital Audio playback that delivers WHERE the performers are on stage but more importantly WHY they are there.
nige2000
Posts: 4253
Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2013 10:47 am
Location: meath

Re: transformer build thread

Post by nige2000 »

jkeny wrote:
nige2000 wrote:
jkeny wrote: It's something I worked on with Domenico but he doesn't provide much explanation for all those downloadable firmware versions in the OEMTool.

I can privately give you details if you like but can't guarantee that they work with all configurations i.e with external master clocks used in reclocking
the oemtool is a bit like wandering around in the dark looking for the light switch
I know - it's frustrating & Domenico mostly won't document what the various firmwares are for & what the dependencies are between CPU & CPLD firmware versions
had you got it working ?

need to see if i have an amanero that's not attached to something i want to keep complete......
If you want to experiment I'll send you on my correspondence with Dom & help you as much as I can? I will have to look back over my notes to remember where I left off - not sure if it was working 100% i.e when using external reclocking which was what I wanted. It seemed that it was one step forward & two steps back all the time with different revisions until I eventually got too frustrated but maybe it was just me?
hard to do without the reclockin
maybe when i get the bag of 1387 chips ill make a half arsed attempt expecting to fail :)
sd card player, modded soekris dac, class a lifepo4 amp or gb class a/b amp, diy open baffle speakers based on project audio mundorf trio 10's
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