cables

[DaveF]

So where does that leave us? No idea!

absolutely nowhere! :-) We've been down this road here many times before.

It's really the cable advertisers that wind me up. The likes of Russ Andrews and Lars from Nordost are master salesmen/conmen and they do their job very well.

[Fran]

Yet there isnt any shred of proof.............Until such proof arises, any differences heard is due to placebo or expectation bias etc )

This here is exactly the issue. Jkeny touched on it elsewhere too - the measurements may be accurate as hell but thats no good if its the wrong thing to be measuring! No measurement exists that has been shown to measure soundstage for example. I don't believe the answer lies in inductance, resistance, capacitance or rfi...... if it did it would have been found or defined by now. What doesn't do either side any favours is the refusal by engineers to believe anythijg else can make a difference and the faith like belief of the other side in peter belt type stuff.

Religion on both sides which allows crap to fill the void.

Fran

[cybot]

Enjoyed reading all that lads and I agree totally with Simon and Dave's findings. Only this week I received the Russ Andrews catalogue/magazine despite informing them not to send it out to me. However on reading it I was actually tempted to try something out, the writing is so, so convincing plus the customer's letters.....now, how could I not believe :-)

I'll tell you a story: About 5 years ago I took it on my head to find out about digital hearing aids as I knew that some day soon I'd be wearing one myself, after being an analogue user all my life. Anyway I browsed my hearing aid manufacture's site and came away convinced that I had to have the, then new, Senso Diva aid. The advertising blurb etc etc was mind boggling... Anyway to make a long story short I made my way up to Bonovox and got talking to my lifelong consultant Bill. I told him my concerns and asked him his opinion on the Senso Diva and it's amazing claims. He laughed. "If it could do all it claims, then I'm getting one myself!"
That was that!! He told me to go home and enjoy the one I had and forget about digital until I actually needed one! I always remembered that conversation and it always brings a wry smile to my lips....

Funnily enough, when the time came to getting my first digital aid in 2006 I was tested by another consultant who didn't recommend the Diva but a cheaper alternative from the same company.It didn't suit me at all, at all and after trying to convince him for weeks on end I demanded he let me,at least, try out the Diva. Would you believe, it was a match made in heaven :-) He was flummoxed..."But the hearing tests point to the fact that the Diva won't suit your type of hearing loss" There's a lesson there somewhere :-)

[Rocker]

Fascinating. Most posters here admit to using upmarket cables, mains - i/cs - speaker. And reading the posts, it is hard not to conclude that a consensus exists that the use of aftermarket cables is a mind game, that buyers expect an improvement hence they get an improvement in sound as a result of using that cable.

I use a mixture of cables in my system, Nordost Heimdall i/cs and speaker cables, Dalkey Audio mains cables and a Russ Andrews PowerKord supplying power to my home made distribution board. To my ears the sound of my system is fairly good. Good enough to allow me to enjoy music of all types without wondering if such and such box is holding back the system and in need of an upgrade.

Just before Christmas the music room was redecorated, thus the system was dismantled while the work was underway. When reinstalling it I decided to test my cables by using the cheapest wires I had. I had to use my Heimdall i/cs as my system is balanced from CD player to the monobloks. Quite frankly, the sound was dismal. I used it that way for a week, it did not improve so over the next week I added my aftermarket cables bit by bit - the sound grew in dynamics and smoothness as each addition was made. At the end I replaced my original Russ Andrews PowerBlock [the black one with six outlets and hard wired cable] with a home made distribution board and pressed into use an unused Russ Andrews PowerKord. This last addition lifted the sound quality a few notches. I spent a few days swapping in and out the distribution board and PowerBlock to confirm that I was hearing what I thought I was hearing.

I am a qualified electrician and I find the whole 'cable thing' makes no sense. [Resistance, capacitance, inductance (RCL) these are the measurable qualities of cables, yet I think there must be another as yet undiscovered element to be measured. It seems that RCL measurements are not enough to explain what I heard. Still we put a man on the moon with our present level of knowledge so who am I to comment!] I clearly heard differences, no make that improvements when using the aftermarket cables. When I tried them out initially I wished and hoped that they made no difference! Admitting dropping a few grand on wires could see the men in white coats turning up at the door. But I think it would take a lot more money to buy hardware that gave the same sonic improvement that the cables I bought did.

Placebo effect? No way. Not at all.

[Diapason]

That mirrors my experience too, Rocker. I don't really have any answers, but I find the whole thing fascinating. Sometime I'll arrange a proper blind test and see how I get on!

[Adrian]

I'm not too sure if people do expect a better sound when buying a new cable. Maybe they do, maybe they don't, but I think there is a psychological tendency for "doing the right thing". For example if one spends several thousand on speakers or amplifier then whats a 100E on a power cable? Or 250 on some interconnect? Sure you may as well buy them, in for a penny, in for a pound and all that.

I even read somewhere in a hi fi mag where this company made supports out of plastic, which sat on floor and held the speaker cable in suspension. So between your amp and speaker there was this pylon arrangement which held up the speaker cable. Of course all sorts of sonic benefits were claimed. You have to laugh sometimes. But again its down to personal choice, and if you can afford such luxeries then so be it.

[Ivor]

I even read somewhere in a hi fi mag where this company made supports out of plastic, which sat on floor and held the speaker cable in suspension. So between your amp and speaker there was this pylon arrangement which held up the speaker cable.

madness. Sur' the disposable cups from water coolers work just as well.

[HiFiFan]

Some time back DaveF wrote "A former work colleague of mine starting working for a very high profile cable company during the summer, one which I probably should not name here. I learned a few truths since then."

Dave - if you have the time and can do so without outing your former work colleague it would be interesting to hear what those truths are.

[DaveF]

Some time back DaveF wrote "A former work colleague of mine starting working for a very high profile cable company during the summer, one which I probably should not name here. I learned a few truths since then."

Dave - if you have the time and can do so without outing your former work colleague it would be interesting to hear what those truths are.

well obviously I'm not going to name the company but basically what he told me were a few things that probably wont surprise many. Now I'm not saying that this applies to all cable companies, just the one he works for.
Basically the company in question has probably more in common with Bose's marketing dept than any proper R&D facility. They spend a considerable amount of time looking at marketing trends and how best to take advantage of it. The cable itself is sourced in bulk from China and then its all about putting fancy insulation around it, then coming up some fancy advertising in all forms: online, magazine, brochure, then come up some fancy names for the cable etc. The writers are all quite clever about it and those that have any sort of basic scientific background are well able to come up with the pseudo science nonsense that really appeals to the believers. From their point of view that's what its all about: believers WILL hear differences.
When I asked him why isnt there any R&D done on how cables might affect the sound, his answer was "because they already have a sh*tload of evidence to say that cables dont do any such thing".
He also mentioned that from time to time, certain popular hifi magazines will be invited out and pampered to no end but I guess looking through the adverts in such mags this shouldnt come as any great surprise.

The above is more or less what this chap told me about the crowd he works for. Draw your own conclusions.

[cybot]

Some time back DaveF wrote "A former work colleague of mine starting working for a very high profile cable company during the summer, one which I probably should not name here. I learned a few truths since then."

Dave - if you have the time and can do so without outing your former work colleague it would be interesting to hear what those truths are.

well obviously I'm not going to name the company but basically what he told me were a few things that probably wont surprise many. Now I'm not saying that this applies to all cable companies, just the one he works for.
Basically the company in question has probably more in common with Bose's marketing dept than any proper R&D facility. They spend a considerable amount of time looking at marketing trends and how best to take advantage of it. The cable itself is sourced in bulk from China and then its all about putting fancy insulation around it, then coming up some fancy advertising in all forms: online, magazine, brochure, then come up some fancy names for the cable etc. The writers are all quite clever about it and those that have any sort of basic scientific background are well able to come up with the pseudo science nonsense that really appeals to the believers. From their point of view that's what its all about: believers WILL hear differences.
When I asked him why isnt there any R&D done on how cables might affect the sound, his answer was "because they already have a sh*tload of evidence to say that cables dont do any such thing".
He also mentioned that from time to time, certain popular hifi magazines will be invited out and pampered to no end but I guess looking through the adverts in such mags this shouldnt come as any great surprise.

The above is more or less what this chap told me about the crowd he works for. Draw your own conclusions.

That's absolutely shocking!!!! Why does it not surprise me? At least I never, ever believed in cables anyway....