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Jared wrote:I'm not really sure whether I can add much to this debate, because you have a wide variety of informed opinions, and I personally don't have a wide selection of Rattle's recordings with the Berliner, however I'll just say this...

It's not so much that Rattle has been criticised for poor standards of performance, rather that CM enthusiasts had hoped for a little more... there is no doubting that in the CBSO, he took a 2nd division orchestra by the scruff of the neck and made some world beating, high quality performances with them, and the feeling was 'if he can do that with the CBSO, what great things can he do with the Berliner?' The truth of the matter is that he hasn't really.

When he has recorded standards like the LvB and Brahms Symph cycles; reprtoire which runs through the very veins of the orchestra, the results have always been uneven and consequently met with mixed reviews; maybe because critics had mentally set such a high bar beforehand, and therefore feel the last 12 years or so have been one of missed opportunities.

One thing I will say for Rattle is that his relationship with the Berliner has always seemed to be most convincing in 20th Century repertoire which ironically, they had not really been known for, before his arrival... here is one which I personally have and rate of his:

Of course we never meant that Rattle was a terrible or incompetent conductor, it´s just that he didn´t deliver the kind of performances that were expected of the Berlin Philharmonic.
Of course it didn´t help that the Gramophone, the BBC Magazine and other British sources were bathing him in (quite frankly) praise that didn´t correspond to reality. Maybe in Pop you can convince stupid teenagers that the Jordan Brothers are great singers, but I like to think that we know better and can tell the difference between the good, the bad and the extraordinary.
Rattle is well liked by the BPO because he is a very nice, no nonsense guy. That must be refreshing for an orchestra after decades of Karajan´s dictatorship. But it would be silly to pretend that the Rattle years can even begin to compare with the glorious Karajan or Abbado years, let alone Furtwängler´s.
By the way, Abbado was also a great champion of 20th century music. He has recorded more of it with the VPO than the BPO, but he certainly played it often with his former orchestra.

The sad thing for Rattle is what he is going to do after the BPO?
Anything else will be a let down.

james wrote:http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2013/ja ... harmoniker

Here is the Guardian's prediction ..


"...................
The remarkably extended five-year contest to succeed Rattle in Berlin guarantees that most of the big names in classical music will be heading for the German capital over the coming seasons. Strategically, the Philharmoniker will surely be tempted to skip a generation and stay on the cutting edge of orchestral life. In that case, there is bound to be speculation, and commercial pressure, for them to hand the baton to Venezuela's charismatic 31-year-old Gustavo Dudamel, now in charge of the Los Angeles Philharmonic, or even Britain's hugely admired Robin Ticciati, 29. Vasily Petrenko, the 36-year-old chief conductor of the Royal Liverpool Philharmonic, must also stand a strong chance of becoming the Berliners' first Russian boss.


But if the Berliners think the young pretenders must wait their turn before ascending to the most prestigious podium of them all, there will be no lack of contenders to choose from. Germany's great traditionalist Christian Thielemann, now 53 and currently based in Dresden, is sure to covet the job, and has recently been broadening his repertoire in ways that are likely to help his chances. Italy's Riccardo Chailly, in charge of the Leipzig Gewandhaus and just two years older than Rattle, would be on most people's shortlists. So would the veteran Latvian Mariss Jansons, who leads two of the world's top orchestras already, the Amsterdam Concertgebouw and the Munich-based Bavarian Radio Symphony Orchestra.


The favourite, though, could well be another young maestro whose career has prospered, like Rattle's, in Birmingham. Andris Nelsons, another Latvian and still only 34, is the hottest conducting property in Europe today. Nelsons is surely the man to beat.
....."

Riccardo Chailly could be a good option but lately he´s been in poor health. Mariss Jansons has been already overexposed being the chief conductor of 2 of the finest orchestras in the World. He has already recorded extensively with them and maybe there´s not much fresh for him to do with the BPO.
I heard Robin Ticciati conduct an absolutely marvelous Hansel and Gretel at the Royal Opera House and he is indeed very, very talented, but definitely too young for the BPO.
I still think that Myung Whun-Chung and Anthony Pappano could be the best options.
But Dudamel....please NOOOOOOOO!

Jose Echenique wrote:Of course it didn´t help that the Gramophone, the BBC Magazine and other British sources were bathing him in (quite frankly) praise that didn´t correspond to reality.

I agree with much of your post Pepe, but I would just point out that there long seems to have been this strange dichotomy within the British Press concerning Rattle which I have never really undestood... he has always enjoyed a high and fairly positive profile over here, I would agree, but the fact is that most British music critics and reviewers have rarely been overly generous about his recordings... I have wondered how long this cycle of fanfare of publicity - recording release - mediocre review - fanfare of publicity can actually go on for, but seemingly it can go on interminably....

the only other artist I can think of in this category is Anne-Sophie Mutter...

Jared wrote:IWhen he has recorded standards like the LvB and Brahms Symph cycles

I may be in the minority here, but I believe Rattle's LvB and Brahms cycles are of particular value (especially the Beethoven). I have been to three BPO concerts with Rattle at the helm and I enjoyed them greatly, even when the repertoire was 'challenging'.

Jose Echenique wrote:Of course it didn´t help that the Gramophone, the BBC Magazine and other British sources were bathing him in (quite frankly) praise that didn´t correspond to reality.

I think this is par for the course in most publications; the homegrown artist may be put on a pedestal that is not always deserved. I often read reviews and opinion from the states that herald the likes of James Levine without the same level praise being reflected 'over here'. The nationalit(ies)y of any publication and the individuals they review are always liable to be biased so you need to be a discerning reader and trust your own ears and your own opinion.

Someone made a good point - Jared, I think - that Rattle's work with the CBSO was, for the most part, inspired and this legacy is one that makes him such highly valued conductor. My complaint with the BPO under Rattle is that his recordings seem to play it safe particulary in terms of selection of repertoire.

Jose Echenique wrote:(I doubt that Furtwängler, Karajan or Abbado EVER conducted a half empty concert after they became conductors of the Berlin Philharmonic, even when guest conducting other orchestras)

I don't doubt that you're correct but I would suggest that, for the most part, those comparisons to different eras may not tell the full story of why there was a half empty hall in that instance

Who said Andris Nelsons? That sounds like a fine idea.

I think JEG is too old to really sink his teeth into the job, and I'd be loathe to seperate him from the ORR and the English Baroque Soloists.

Dudamel is a 'no' for me too. His Mahler 2 at the Proms a couple of years back did him no favours with me.

Pappano is a reliable option too, but it feels to me like Thielemann is the front-runner (he doesn't seem to have an especially high profile in the UK though so I have not been exposed to much of his work)

bombasticDarren wrote:I think this is par for the course in most publications; the homegrown artist may be put on a pedestal that is not always deserved. I often read reviews and opinion from the states that herald the likes of James Levine without the same level praise being reflected 'over here'.

I think this is a particularly good point... the British are particularly taken to task over this, because of the ownership of BBC, Gramophone and PG, but I think this happens in all nations, and James Levine is a good example... his profile isn't particularly large in the UK as far as I'm aware...

bombasticDarren wrote:

Jose Echenique wrote:Of course it didn´t help that the Gramophone, the BBC Magazine and other British sources were bathing him in (quite frankly) praise that didn´t correspond to reality.

I think this is par for the course in most publications; the homegrown artist may be put on a pedestal that is not always deserved. I often read reviews and opinion from the states that herald the likes of James Levine without the same level praise being reflected 'over here'. The nationalit(ies)y of any publication and the individuals they review are always liable to be biased so you need to be a discerning reader and trust your own ears and your own opinion.

Someone made a good point - Jared, I think - that Rattle's work with the CBSO was, for the most part, inspired and this legacy is one that makes him such highly valued conductor. My complaint with the BPO under Rattle is that his recordings seem to play it safe particulary in terms of selection of repertoire.

That is also very true Darren. If you look at the Grammy winners of practically any year, they are all Americans, and that of course only diminishes the value of the award.

But I´m sure the Gramophone is well aware of how influential are their reviews worldwide, especially since thousands of people beyond the UK read them. In general they are some of the best written reviews of any Classical music magazines that I read, and I can read in French and Italian too.
Usually they are sound, logic and in good taste, but often they seem way too much partial to certain artists, often, but not always British (they also invariably favor German mezzo Brigitte Fassbaender).
The UK has given us so many musical giants (Beecham, Barbirolli, Boult, Gardiner of course, Janet Baker, Margaret Price, Curzon, etc.) that I never understood the need to raise Sir Simon to the Heavens (he was Knighted before Gardiner for Heaven´s sake...Gardiner was not too happy about that he, he).
Rattle has of course done some excellent things. All his Szymanowski recordings are excellent, and I´m definitely a big fan of his Porgy and Bess, but many others have not been that good, or at least as good as the Gramophone would like us to believe.
I strongly doubt that his announced resignation was just a personal decision, because quite simply no one leaves the greatest orchestra in the World to do "other things", especially when in his 60´s he is in his prime as a conductor. This is just a guess, but I think both he and the orchestra realized that something was not working.
On the other hand Pappano is one superb conductor that invariably delivers that "something extra" that many of us felt missing in Rattle. If the BPO has any good sense, they will take a good look at him.
Granitic, Teutonic, Thielemann is reliable, but I find him just a little bit boring.

Jose Echenique wrote:Granitic, Teutonic, Thielemann is reliable, but I find him just a little bit boring.

This is also my concern. I have a feeling that after an Italian and a Brit they may feel it's time for someone Germanic in origin...just a thought