Many thanks to Fergus for coming up with the idea for this series of threads. Also for all his hard work explaining the sounds hidden or otherwise in Vivaldi’s’ Four Seasons.
I have four versions of Vivaldi’s Four Seasons:
(1) Takako Nishizaki on violin with Capella Istropolitana conducted by Stephen Gunzenhauser [CD] on the Naxos label.
(2) Mark Tucker on flute with The English Ensemble leader Clare Thompson, [CD] on the Timbre Records label.
(3) Celebration of the Baroque with the Musicians of San Marco conducted by Alberto Lizzio [CD], Orbis (disk 5)
(4) José-Luis Garcia on violin with The English Chamber Orchestra conducted by Leonard Slatkin [Cassette Tape] on the Readers Digest label.
Having read all that Fergus wrote and the information contained in the CDs booklets [especially the Orbis], I had an appreciation of what to expect from these pieces of music. Approaching the listening challenge as a Country and Rock music lover, I found it easier to get into the music by simply letting it wash over me while I just listened without trying to hear the dog or the cuckoo or the skaters.......... My enjoyment was certainly increased by knowing what the music was about.
As you probably know by now, I do not go in for detailed sound quality analysis. I enjoyed the four different versions of the music but found the Mark Tucker CD a little tiring and the sound of the flute a bit irritating and grating especially when compared to the violins. Surprisingly, the sound of José-Luis Garcia playing on the cassette tape was better than expected and even though there were no track numbers displayed, I found that I could identify the Seasons and the sections within each season easily enough. The Naxos CD is readily available and sounds pretty good as does the Orbis disk (which may not be easily obtainable). Fergus, Ciaran, Sean, Simon and others have analysed the playing of the soloists, their posts are very informative and there is nothing I can add to those. When I last spoke to Fergus, I remember that he talked about ‘the performance’ and how it differs on the different recordings, this is a quality that passed me by completely. Generally I find that I can evaluate the playing and interpretation only when I see and hear the performance ‘live’. I feel that the recording process seems to lose some or all of that insight and the joie de vivre that you experience at a live performance,no matter what type of music is being played.
My wife thought I would prefer the Winter concerto which turned out to be the case as I prefer the starkness and openness of the wintertime. I also liked the Autumn concerto and least liked the Spring and Summer concertos.
Twentieth century Italian composer Dallapiccola wrote (on the similarity in style of many of Vivaldi’s works): “Vivaldi didn’t write 450 concertos, he wrote one concerto 450 times”. This was brought home to me recently when I switched on the radio and heard music playing, music that I recognised as Vivaldi (it was not part of the Four Seasons). It was Vivaldi!
In the few weeks since Fergus suggested this exercise, my listening to Classical music has increased. I listen to Lyric FM most days [even if only for a few minutes at a time] and have started playing the occasional Classical CD. I notice that I am now listening ‘differently’ to all music (as alluded to on another post) especially Rock and Country; before I locked into the beat but now I am hearing the lyrics too. I have gained a greater appreciation of the song writing skills of Johnny Cash as a result. I find the idea of Vivaldi improving my understanding of Johnny Cash’s music slightly strange but it has and that of other singers too.
The Vivaldi experience has been enjoyable. The discipline of a group listening to and commenting on one work was good and educational and I am looking forward to what delights are revealed over the coming months.
Vivaldi: Four Seasons
Re: Vivaldi: Four Seasons
It's OK, if there is no bread I will eat cake.
Beware of a thin chef!
Beware of a thin chef!
Re: Vivaldi: Four Seasons
That's a lovely post Tom, anything that enhances your enjoyment of music can only be a good thing, I really enjoyed reading your thoughts, thanks.
"To appreciate the greatness of the Masters is to keep faith in the greatness of humanity." - Wilhelm Furtwängler
Re: Vivaldi: Four Seasons
That was a very fine post Tom, well done on the effort stakes. I agree with you on the Winter" concerto being a particular favourite.
Having once been a Rock, Blues and Folk listener I do not find it strange at all that you are hearing your own preferred music "better" now that you have "analysed" the Four Seasons. I would suggest that this is not due to the Four Seasons or Vivaldi but rather the process of actually "listening" to what you are hearing, irrespective of the genre. That single process alone is what makes the difference and what the idea of the Thread was all about in the first place.
Keep it up Tom and I look forward with interest to your comments on upcoming monthly comments. I am very pleased that you have been somewhat rewarded by your delving into this sound world even after so short a time.
Having once been a Rock, Blues and Folk listener I do not find it strange at all that you are hearing your own preferred music "better" now that you have "analysed" the Four Seasons. I would suggest that this is not due to the Four Seasons or Vivaldi but rather the process of actually "listening" to what you are hearing, irrespective of the genre. That single process alone is what makes the difference and what the idea of the Thread was all about in the first place.
Keep it up Tom and I look forward with interest to your comments on upcoming monthly comments. I am very pleased that you have been somewhat rewarded by your delving into this sound world even after so short a time.
To be is to do: Socrates
To do is to be: Sartre
Do be do be do: Sinatra
To do is to be: Sartre
Do be do be do: Sinatra
Re: Vivaldi: Four Seasons
Excellent stuff, Tom. Like many, I don't find it unusual at all that listening to this music has changed the way you listen to other music. That for me is the beauty of it, and any "real" music should have this effect. I imagine your listening of the Four Seasons has also been enhanced by your understanding of rock, blues and country: rhythm, pulse and beat are all really important in classical music, but not every player can do justice to them. Some make a beautiful sound, but can't make the music dance, or rock, or whatever. I know that I'm always attracted to a "rhythmic" approach to baroque music especially. It shouldn't be too pretty!
Which kind of leads me to one last point I wanted to pick up on before we move off this music: the slow movements. It was mentioned upthread that the slow movements are sometimes more difficult to enjoy, and for a long time I would certainly have felt that myself. For me, it's all about momentum, music should always be moving forward, if it sits down rhythmically or gets bogged down in detail then all is lost (to my ears). In the outer movements of each concerto the momentum is virtually built in, even a relatively straight-laced performance should get the foot tapping. In the slower movements though, it's all down to the players, and it boils down to keeping a sense of line even when notes aren't changing very much. If you listen to the best players, no matter how slow the music, there's always a sense of the music leading somewhere, even at the end of phrases. If you feel that notes are just isolated gobs of sound, then of course the music will be boring. When you lock onto the line, that sense of forward momentum, then the slow movements start to make a lot more sense. It's only in recent years I've realised how hard it is to do that effectively in performance, and I find it an interesting thing to listen out for now.
Fergus, thank you for kicking this off and for doing such a fine job leading the discussion. I'm really looking forward to learning more over the coming months, but there's no doubt that Fergus has got us off to a great start here!
Which kind of leads me to one last point I wanted to pick up on before we move off this music: the slow movements. It was mentioned upthread that the slow movements are sometimes more difficult to enjoy, and for a long time I would certainly have felt that myself. For me, it's all about momentum, music should always be moving forward, if it sits down rhythmically or gets bogged down in detail then all is lost (to my ears). In the outer movements of each concerto the momentum is virtually built in, even a relatively straight-laced performance should get the foot tapping. In the slower movements though, it's all down to the players, and it boils down to keeping a sense of line even when notes aren't changing very much. If you listen to the best players, no matter how slow the music, there's always a sense of the music leading somewhere, even at the end of phrases. If you feel that notes are just isolated gobs of sound, then of course the music will be boring. When you lock onto the line, that sense of forward momentum, then the slow movements start to make a lot more sense. It's only in recent years I've realised how hard it is to do that effectively in performance, and I find it an interesting thing to listen out for now.
Really? Must have missed that... ;)Rocker wrote:Ciaran...analysed the playing of the soloists
Fergus, thank you for kicking this off and for doing such a fine job leading the discussion. I'm really looking forward to learning more over the coming months, but there's no doubt that Fergus has got us off to a great start here!
Nerdcave: ...is no more! 
Sitting Room: Wadia 581SE - Rega Planar 3/AT VM95ML & SH - Bluesound Node II - Copland CSA 100 - Audioplan Kontrast 3
Kitchen: WiiM Pro - Wadia 151 - B&W 685s2
Sitting Room: Wadia 581SE - Rega Planar 3/AT VM95ML & SH - Bluesound Node II - Copland CSA 100 - Audioplan Kontrast 3
Kitchen: WiiM Pro - Wadia 151 - B&W 685s2
Re: Vivaldi: Four Seasons
To be honest Simon this type of thread depends, for its success, upon a good participation rate from a number of different people who all have a different take on the given subject. I think that is why this particular topic has been successful so hopefully the rest of them will follow in similar fashion. There is no reason why they should not. The Four Seasons was specifically picked to kick start the thing because it was quite accessible but people should not be intimidated by what is to follow. So far the list does not contain anything that is too "difficult". If people do perceive that something might be a challenge my advice would be simply to listen to the music and follow the discussions that hopefully will follow; always give the music a chance!Diapason wrote:
Fergus, thank you for kicking this off.... I'm really looking forward to learning more over the coming months, but there's no doubt that Fergus has got us off to a great start here!
To be is to do: Socrates
To do is to be: Sartre
Do be do be do: Sinatra
To do is to be: Sartre
Do be do be do: Sinatra
Re: Vivaldi: Four Seasons
Can't argue with that!
Nerdcave: ...is no more!
Sitting Room: Wadia 581SE - Rega Planar 3/AT VM95ML & SH - Bluesound Node II - Copland CSA 100 - Audioplan Kontrast 3
Kitchen: WiiM Pro - Wadia 151 - B&W 685s2
Sitting Room: Wadia 581SE - Rega Planar 3/AT VM95ML & SH - Bluesound Node II - Copland CSA 100 - Audioplan Kontrast 3
Kitchen: WiiM Pro - Wadia 151 - B&W 685s2
Re: Vivaldi: Four Seasons
As we bid a fond farewell to the month of February and welcome in a new metrological season: Spring, I thought that I might submit my last suggestion for consideration and see if this is one that Fergus will approve of: it is not classical music and it is a big band interpretation.
In the seventies when I was a young lad we had a few classical LPs in my home. The lads that I ran with were mainly pre-occupied with pop although some were partial to Irish folk music and Alan Stivell. We had albums of music by Beethoven, Mozart – no one was interested in them; ”Rodrigo’s Guitar Concerto” with Julian Bream and a few versions of Vivaldi’s Four Seasons. Rodrigo’s was a perennial favourite, particularly with the lads and the Four Seasons did interest some it must be said. I had two at the time one on loan with a Jazz Trio and the second was “The Four Seasons” in Jazz after Antonio Vivaldi, arranged and conducted by Raymond Fol. This is a very good big band interpretation of The Four Seasons.
Raymond Fol assembled a very fine orchestra in Paris in July 1965, it boasted 4 trumpets; 4 trombones; 5 saxophones; 2 flutes; vibraphones & bongos; piano & celeste; guitar; 2 bass; 1 drums and 2 percussionists. viewtopic.php?f=6&t=28&p=23639#p23639
He built his arrangements around a group of American musicians: the little Chicago giant: Johnny Griffin tenor saxophone; Sadi vibes & bongos; Jimmy Woode on bass and Art Taylor on drums.
Vivaldi’s music provides a perfect foil for Fol, and for any other jazz arranger for that matter, as the movements are short, uncomplicated and provide an excellent vehicle for the soloist.
These performances are also in 12 movements, here are a few snippets from youtube, the entire album is up there for your perusal:
Spring
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imYGB8_p ... re=related
Summer
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ij2Tw8E4 ... re=related
Autumn
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTw-0bUi ... re=related
Winter
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDJczGvA ... re=related
If you are in anyway partial to big band jazz then this is certainly for you, enjoy.
Should this post be over on the other side, I wonder? Recommended.
In the seventies when I was a young lad we had a few classical LPs in my home. The lads that I ran with were mainly pre-occupied with pop although some were partial to Irish folk music and Alan Stivell. We had albums of music by Beethoven, Mozart – no one was interested in them; ”Rodrigo’s Guitar Concerto” with Julian Bream and a few versions of Vivaldi’s Four Seasons. Rodrigo’s was a perennial favourite, particularly with the lads and the Four Seasons did interest some it must be said. I had two at the time one on loan with a Jazz Trio and the second was “The Four Seasons” in Jazz after Antonio Vivaldi, arranged and conducted by Raymond Fol. This is a very good big band interpretation of The Four Seasons.
Raymond Fol assembled a very fine orchestra in Paris in July 1965, it boasted 4 trumpets; 4 trombones; 5 saxophones; 2 flutes; vibraphones & bongos; piano & celeste; guitar; 2 bass; 1 drums and 2 percussionists. viewtopic.php?f=6&t=28&p=23639#p23639
He built his arrangements around a group of American musicians: the little Chicago giant: Johnny Griffin tenor saxophone; Sadi vibes & bongos; Jimmy Woode on bass and Art Taylor on drums.
Vivaldi’s music provides a perfect foil for Fol, and for any other jazz arranger for that matter, as the movements are short, uncomplicated and provide an excellent vehicle for the soloist.
These performances are also in 12 movements, here are a few snippets from youtube, the entire album is up there for your perusal:
Spring
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imYGB8_p ... re=related
Summer
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ij2Tw8E4 ... re=related
Autumn
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTw-0bUi ... re=related
Winter
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDJczGvA ... re=related
If you are in anyway partial to big band jazz then this is certainly for you, enjoy.
Should this post be over on the other side, I wonder? Recommended.
"To appreciate the greatness of the Masters is to keep faith in the greatness of humanity." - Wilhelm Furtwängler
Re: Vivaldi: Four Seasons
Not me, guv!Diapason wrote:Really? Must have missed that... ;)Rocker wrote:Ciaran...analysed the playing of the soloists
Should have, but I've been madly busy!
Re: Vivaldi: Four Seasons
Terribly sorry for my late contribution.
I came to learn that many people on Tir Na are big fans of Baroque music. Here is an area of classical music that I don't know much (that and religious music) and that I will learn a great deal about from you. I don't know why but baroque music never did it for me for the longest time. Over the years I discovered that it is the ideal background music while doing something else. I am ashamed to say that I do not know much about Bach, Telemann, Vivaldi and Handel but hope to learn more about them over the years.
That being said, I sure did know about the Four Seasons and I think that it was a wonderful choice to begin our listening projects. I started to be interested in classical music in 1999 out of revenge for an ex-girlfriend who claimed that only high class people and people with high culture could appreciate classical music (I know, it is ridiculous but I learned the hard way that some people are like that). I wanted to prove her wrong and quickly realized that it was stupid to discover classical music for that reason. Thanks to her though I discovered a passion of mine.
I did not really know where to start but rapidly obtained a free copy of the naxos catalogue (who was rather small at the time). In it, you could find a top 50 of recordings to begin a classical music collection. If I remember correctly, The Four Seasons was 1st, Ein Kleine Nichtmusik 2nd and so on. Another book that I bought to helped me was 'The Classical music for Dummies' book which came with a sample cd. Because of the sample, I was quickly hooked to Mozart piano concertos, Debussy's La Mer and Stravinsky's The Rite of Spring. Following the Naxos guide I also purchased the Four Seasons.
I recognized a few melodies from the Four Seasons at first but was not impressed by the instrumentations, the harpsichord and so on. That was it for me and the Four Seasons. It took me three years to touch the Four Seasons again. Three years where I learned to be more open minded and appreciative of classical music in general. That is when I realized how much of a masterpiece the Four Seasons are.
The four concertos forming the piece are all relatively short and yet, everything is expressed within these lines. Most of movements are melodious, easy to pick up and very catchy. The piece is about something that everybody knows about (the seasons) and that is universal. The piece can be seen either in an abstract way or as depicting the actual seasons. And the good thing is that is does but amazingly well.
In my opinion, real masterpieces are timeless and often unanimously appreciated. The Four Season is a perfect example in my opinion.
Like I mentioned in one of my recent comment we tend to take masterpieces for granted and keep looking at new pieces to spice up our interest. But going back to long neglected masterpieces once in a while is amazing for the soul. And that is why I was very happy to go back to the Four Seasons. To remember !
Of the four concertos, my favorite is Autumn. I find it to be perfect. All three movements are amazing. It took me a while to appreciate Winter but now I can say that it is beautiful too. Perhaps the most abstract of all four.
Of course the Four Seasons is a violin piece but I love the way the Harpsichord accompany some of the movements. Love the second movement of the Winter Concerto and how the Harpsichord is king. Very abstract and scary effect in my opinion.
I will conclude with a personal anecdote. My wife's parents live in Moscow for 3 years. On one of these years my wife visited her parents (that was before I even met her) and they had front row seats to a Four Seasons performance. None of them are particularly into classical music but that experience remains at the top of their favorite cultural experience.
Matt.
I came to learn that many people on Tir Na are big fans of Baroque music. Here is an area of classical music that I don't know much (that and religious music) and that I will learn a great deal about from you. I don't know why but baroque music never did it for me for the longest time. Over the years I discovered that it is the ideal background music while doing something else. I am ashamed to say that I do not know much about Bach, Telemann, Vivaldi and Handel but hope to learn more about them over the years.
That being said, I sure did know about the Four Seasons and I think that it was a wonderful choice to begin our listening projects. I started to be interested in classical music in 1999 out of revenge for an ex-girlfriend who claimed that only high class people and people with high culture could appreciate classical music (I know, it is ridiculous but I learned the hard way that some people are like that). I wanted to prove her wrong and quickly realized that it was stupid to discover classical music for that reason. Thanks to her though I discovered a passion of mine.
I did not really know where to start but rapidly obtained a free copy of the naxos catalogue (who was rather small at the time). In it, you could find a top 50 of recordings to begin a classical music collection. If I remember correctly, The Four Seasons was 1st, Ein Kleine Nichtmusik 2nd and so on. Another book that I bought to helped me was 'The Classical music for Dummies' book which came with a sample cd. Because of the sample, I was quickly hooked to Mozart piano concertos, Debussy's La Mer and Stravinsky's The Rite of Spring. Following the Naxos guide I also purchased the Four Seasons.
I recognized a few melodies from the Four Seasons at first but was not impressed by the instrumentations, the harpsichord and so on. That was it for me and the Four Seasons. It took me three years to touch the Four Seasons again. Three years where I learned to be more open minded and appreciative of classical music in general. That is when I realized how much of a masterpiece the Four Seasons are.
The four concertos forming the piece are all relatively short and yet, everything is expressed within these lines. Most of movements are melodious, easy to pick up and very catchy. The piece is about something that everybody knows about (the seasons) and that is universal. The piece can be seen either in an abstract way or as depicting the actual seasons. And the good thing is that is does but amazingly well.
In my opinion, real masterpieces are timeless and often unanimously appreciated. The Four Season is a perfect example in my opinion.
Like I mentioned in one of my recent comment we tend to take masterpieces for granted and keep looking at new pieces to spice up our interest. But going back to long neglected masterpieces once in a while is amazing for the soul. And that is why I was very happy to go back to the Four Seasons. To remember !
Of the four concertos, my favorite is Autumn. I find it to be perfect. All three movements are amazing. It took me a while to appreciate Winter but now I can say that it is beautiful too. Perhaps the most abstract of all four.
Of course the Four Seasons is a violin piece but I love the way the Harpsichord accompany some of the movements. Love the second movement of the Winter Concerto and how the Harpsichord is king. Very abstract and scary effect in my opinion.
I will conclude with a personal anecdote. My wife's parents live in Moscow for 3 years. On one of these years my wife visited her parents (that was before I even met her) and they had front row seats to a Four Seasons performance. None of them are particularly into classical music but that experience remains at the top of their favorite cultural experience.
Matt.
Re: Vivaldi: Four Seasons
I only have two recordings of that piece:
and then the following one that was recording by the orchestra of where I live with Pincheas Zuckerman as the soloist (he has also been the main conductor for the last few years)
I enjoy both but have a special place for the later one since it is from my local orchestra.
Matt.
and then the following one that was recording by the orchestra of where I live with Pincheas Zuckerman as the soloist (he has also been the main conductor for the last few years)
I enjoy both but have a special place for the later one since it is from my local orchestra.
Matt.