Tír Na HiFi

dhyantyke wrote: Sir!! Nice to hear your reply. One doesn't want to be a pest!! Watch out for more 'incoming'...

dhyantyke, you will never be considered a pest. Honest!

Yep!!! Please do ask away.... and if no-one can help, maybe some can send you in the right direction at least! The other really good thing here is that we are a pretty friendly bunch, and if you are thinking of buying some equipment, or want to have a listen to something, its easy enough to pm someone and ask......

I attended some of the Roy Gregory talk. To be honest he kinda rehashed what has been said in this thread, and then outlined what he thought was likely to happen in the future, broken down by interest group. These were the manufacturers, the dealers, the magazine/reviewers and the buyers. One thing that I thought made some sense was that for dealers to survive, they needed to add extra value to their service.... i.e. have some edge so that customers would go to them rather than eg richer sounds. Part of this was having a way into hifi.

I feel kinda sorry for a lot of the manufacturers & dealers. The internet has utterly changed the hifi scene. No longer is the customer dependant on the dealer for information - everyone just goes straight to the internet to find out user impressions from all over the globe. However, the same goes for many professions - a good example are doctors (dealers differ and customers pay?). He mentioned a bit about these in his talk. Dealers tend to focus attention on the big dollar items, as thats where there is still some profit (no profit in selling a €400 pioneer amp) and by this very process tend to skew their own market to an ever-tightening niche. The problem is that its a dying market.

Its very hard to convince the average joe that its worth spending effort or cash on a hifi when he can have all his tunes on his ipod.... and yes, the BS doesn't help.

Lars: He talked about the mains distribution block... and how much attention had been paid to earth/ground within the block. He even said that the grounds were arranged so that there was some resistance between some sockets. The idea was that a slight potential was set up so that you'd plug a source or preamp into the lowest potential ground, then power amp etc. His stated reason for why this sounded better was that you could have the signal ground (ie in your interconnects) carrying mains earth and that this was BAAAAD SOOUUND. But he didn't mention that the earth in the mains lead would present a much lower impedance path than the interconnects ever would, and that if it didn't you'd end up with a ground loop anyway. Once you dissected what he was saying, it was utter voodoo BS. Because it came out like a semi plausible reason to explain to a non-expert audience, it makes the sin bigger for being pseudo science.
And here's the major problem.... I think that various interconnects can have an effect on the sound. I even think that power cords could make a difference. But hearing Lars BS on and on with such techno babble just makes me want to deny deny deny. So even someone who wants to believe, is neutrally minded on the subject, now is turned away. Now whenever anyone suggests some new gadget that could be an improvement, it will get shouted down for being BS (not here of course, but across the internet world).

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rant off?

Fran

It occurs to me that one of the problems within the HiFi universe as it is currently configured is the lack of entry/mid level gear and a relatively clear upgrade path. For example, when I got my first job and stereo in the late seventies the pinnacle of ambition was Linn/Grace/Supex/Naim/Isobarik and once this level was achieved you could triamp the Isobariks. There was a very clear upgrade path from any starter system to nirvana based on the rubbish in/rubbish out principle. Improve the turntable, arm and cartridge, improve the amp, improve the speakers, improve the turntable, and so on. It seems to me that these days there's no real way to dip a toe in the water without investing quite a large sum.

Fran wrote:Lars: He talked about the mains distribution block... and how much attention had been paid to earth/ground within the block. He even said that the grounds were arranged so that there was some resistance between some sockets. The idea was that a slight potential was set up so that you'd plug a source or preamp into the lowest potential ground, then power amp etc. His stated reason for why this sounded better was that you could have the signal ground (ie in your interconnects) carrying mains earth and that this was BAAAAD SOOUUND. But he didn't mention that the earth in the mains lead would present a much lower impedance path than the interconnects ever would, and that if it didn't you'd end up with a ground loop anyway. Once you dissected what he was saying, it was utter voodoo BS. Because it came out like a semi plausible reason to explain to a non-expert audience, it makes the sin bigger for being pseudo science.
And here's the major problem.... I think that various interconnects can have an effect on the sound. I even think that power cords could make a difference. But hearing Lars BS on and on with such techno babble just makes me want to deny deny deny. So even someone who wants to believe, is neutrally minded on the subject, now is turned away. Now whenever anyone suggests some new gadget that could be an improvement, it will get shouted down for being BS (not here of course, but across the internet world).
Fran

I heard Lars slightly differently Fran, it was still BS but what I heard was Lar speaking of grounding which I took to mean both electricial and physical grounding. I don't buy his idea of having special sockets in a distribution board for pre-amps etc. Messing about with resistances or whatever to create these special sockets does not make any sense to me. And I am speaking as an electrician [but one who did not work at the trade for thirty five years plus so what would I know]. Physical grounding is a concept that I discovered for myself - you may recall that some time ago I built a distribution block from a scrap of bog oak [extremely dense wood]. I fitted three spikes to the underside and placed the block on the carpeted floor pressing the spikes through the carpet to the concrete floor. Fitting the spikes made a significant improvement in the sound and was of a far greater magnitude than any of what Lars showed us last Saturday. As I understood Lars he implied that all the kit should be on the one stand with the stand supports [spikes, Kones or whatever] channelling all the vibrations into the floor [ground in Lars speak]. I heard no audible difference when Lars placed the distribution block on the stand or on the floor. Vertex AQ publish a (free) book which explains the Vertex AQ principles about grounding of vibrations both internal in componenets and external [their take on what Lars said]. Check their website and follow the links, for what it is worth that book is a good read. It could be 100% BS so be alert!!!

JAW wrote:It occurs to me that one of the problems within the HiFi universe as it is currently configured is the lack of entry/mid level gear and a relatively clear upgrade path.

...... It seems to me that these days there's no real way to dip a toe in the water without investing quite a large sum.

Yip I would agree. Thats one of the biggest problems I see with trying to attract newcomers to hifi. I think entry level hifi is probably too expensive as it is. I know companies need to make a profit and all that but surely they can design good systems that dont cost too much and without the BS or pseudo science. Maybe they might make a loss or little or no profit but if it showed people that getting good sound doesnt need to cost an arm and a leg and no BS to put them off, it might be a way forward.
The guys here who work in DIY audio have shown that a very good system can be put together for very reasonable money.

Of course trying to convince the ipod generation is another story.

Diapason wrote:I don't have time to contribute at the mo, but let's just say I agree with most of this, and disagree with some of it.

you've had a day to think about it.

so?

Damn the working day!

Okay, briefly:

1. I think the biggest problem is that listening to music is no longer something that's done exclusively, it's something that's done while you're doing something else. Hifi doesn't fit into this model at all currently, and it's hard to see how it will. At this point, we've lost 99% of the population, and virtually everyone under 20.

2. Even if you are an outlier and enjoy listening to music while sitting in a room, it's no longer the case that good sound requires a serious hifi. Contrary to the suggestions elsewhere in the thread, I think the lower end of the market is flourishing, there are LOADS of good-sounding options for the casual listener, and that's the problem. For most people, the sound from an iPod dock and speakers is plenty good enough. Back in the day, if you wanted genuinely good sound you had no choice but to put together a separates system, there was such a gulf between that and mainstream products. Now you just buy a Zeppelin, and given how often that pops up in mainstream mags, that's a popular and desirable product to many. Why should people upgrade from the simplicity of that? I think the real answer is that "good" hifi just isn't enough better than "normal" stuff any more.

3. The craziness and pseudoscience associated with the business is another huge problem, as DaveF pointed out. Anyone dipping their toe into this would surely come to the conclusion that cables are the most important part of sound. It's madness, and it helps nobody.

Where I don't really agree that there's a widespread problem is in the area of cost. There are plenty, absolutely plenty of entry level gear that doesn't cost the earth, it's just that most of us don't look at it any more because most of us have moved from entry level. There's a clear and reasonably continuous upgrade path from iPod to state-of-the-art if you want to look for it. The problem is that most of us are wedded the idea that real hifi should start at 100 quid a component or so. That used to be true, right? Well, 100 quid then compared to average monthly wage probably translates reasonably well to several hundred Euro now. Of course, as pointed out above, other electronics have come down in price, but I don't think that's a good benchmark for things like speakers. The fact is, my Sony blu-ray player that I bought in Power City for less than 200 Euro sounds absolutely fine playing CDs. Better than fine, actually, it's my CD source in my second system and I'm perfectly happy with it. Good stuff is out there for cheap. That hasn't changed.

Now, as we move up to the state of the art, of course things are going to be expensive, but that's true in every field. Why is it acceptable to buy a BMW for 50k or 60k? Nobody laughs at the existence of Ferrari. Nobody laughs at the existence of Patek Philippe. Why is hifi different? Why should we be embarrassed that the very best costs a lot of money?

Now, what can the hifi industry do? I dunno, but mediocre sound from massively expensive gear in packed hotel rooms won't do it. If I'm considering buying a car I take it for several test drives, and this is an accepted part of the process. It's all about proper demonstration, and this is where Cloney Audio (for example) has always excelled. Reports from the US though suggest that this sort of service is no longer the norm, that high-end dealers over there can't be bothered setting anything up for you to hear unless you've got a 5-figure budget, and even then you have to put down a deposit before they'll let you hear anything. That has to stop. A short-sighed approach like that keeps this hobby elitist and ensures the word NEVER gets out that things can and do sound better than an iPod without breaking the bank. Hifi manufacturers don't engage with the public at all, and the "music" being played by some exhibitors at the show demonstrates this only too clearly. It's time for manufacturers and dealers to start selling again, rather than expecting the customer to come to them. I wonder do they remember how?

I've loads more to say, of course, but I must do some work.

Yes,the problem with the bit I heard of Lars spiel was that it interleaved true & serious issues with absolute BS. Electrical grounding, for instance is a very important element in audio & should be carefully designed which was part of his message but then he proceeded to utter the BS that the preamp (I think) must be the main ground & all other device grounds should be uplifted by 1 or 2 ohms so that "the ground doesn't work against the flow of signals" - BS & utter tripe. Having grounds at different potentials = ground loops, something we have all experienced as hum or noise in our audio systems. I had to leave :)

Why is it acceptable to buy a BMW for 50k or 60k? Nobody laughs at the existence of Ferrari. Nobody laughs at the existence of Patek Philippe. Why is hifi different? Why should we be embarrassed that the very best costs a lot of money?

Very good point. But just look at those products..... very little of the BS attached to them. Likewise I don't think many people laugh at an expensive amp or CDP or turntable. But they do laugh at expensive ugly cones that you put under power strips, or little yokes that raise your cables 2" off the floor..... and even more so the ridiculous prices that are charged for these items.


I think if nordost sold a cone-shaped object that you stuck to the dash of your F350 and by having it there said the engine sounded better, or the car was 0.5% faster from 0-60.... well how many sales would they have?


Fran

Absolutely true, Fran.