MQN

Anything to do with computer audio, hardware, software etc.
Aleg
Posts: 1381
Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2013 8:26 pm

Re: MQN

Post by Aleg »

wushuliu wrote:
Aleg wrote:
wushuliu wrote:
Sorry but as much as I respect what those guys are doing as a fellow DIY'er it should not be a must for me to spend hundreds if not thousands of dollars on Paul Pang Products, clocks, whatever flavor of the month cable/usb/card/SSD, power supply. etc. There is not enough consensus IMO on a lot of those items when it comes to MQN or even jplay. I need more than just a couple of guys' opinions on that stuff before I invest that kind of time and money. There are just too many variables.
I think you should, if you aim for the best sound quality.
If you don't want to spend time and/or money (and it doesn't have to be big bucks, as Nigel is keeping it low cost afaik), you will have to accept that it will be less than best. And that will become apparent on revealing software and hifi gear.

You can't have it all for nothing.

Cheers

Aleg
So MQN should be developed to satisfy 3 or 4 people (if that) with 'highly tuned' machines? Especially as the designer himself does not own any such machine?

I am all for the pursuit of low noise, improved audio performance via pc but I believe that constitutes a separate journey than determining how MQN should 'sound'.

As for your earlier snarky comment about my contribution to mqn that reminds I have not donated which I certainly should have done by now. So thanks.
No, MQn should be developed to be a neutral and detailed player, to be the best a player can be.
This means on lesser hardware it will show flaws of that hardware. But in my opinion that doesn't mean the player should be dumbed down to hide those flaws.

MQn was on the track to be THE best software player, beating £ multi-k streamers on sound quality.

I hope it will keep following that track.

Cheers

Aleg
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wushuliu
Posts: 180
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Re: MQN

Post by wushuliu »

Let me emphasize again that unless I'm mistaken Gordon does not have an 'optimized' PC, so how can he create progressively improved versions that accurately appeal to the optimized crowd. Isn't every effort just a pure shot in the dark in this regard?
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Aleg
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Tip: Styles can be applied quickly to selected text.

Post by Aleg »

wushuliu wrote:Let me emphasize again that unless I'm mistaken Gordon does not have an 'optimized' PC, so how can he create progressively improved versions that accurately appeal to the optimized crowd. Isn't every effort just a pure shot in the dark in this regard?
No, Gordon has been gathering feedback from all kind of users for maybe nearly a year now, users who also display the hardware and hifi used.

I have literally spend hundreds of hours of listening to all kinds of versions and giving feedback to Gordon and supporting other users in using and improving the use of MQn.

This is no stab in the dark, Gordon should be able to know what effect all his changes had on his own and on others' hardware.

Cheers

Aleg
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satshanti
Posts: 85
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Re: MQN

Post by satshanti »

In general, I could say easily that versions Aleg likes are the best sounding in my system too.
+1
MQn should be developed to be a neutral and detailed player, to be the best a player can be.
This means on lesser hardware it will show flaws of that hardware.
+1

Interesting discussion going on. I think that claiming Aleg's camp likes their music "analytical", while Gordon's camp likes it "musical" is not exactly a reflection of how things really are imho.

Imagine the 100% perfect music player software. For the sake of argument, also imagine a system to play it on, say computer hardware, dac, amp and speakers, that is 100% perfect. What would that really mean? What would be its qualities? Analytical, detailed, musical? No, those are still subjective and therefore inherently "imperfect" qualities. The main quality of true perfection is absolute fidelity. What comes in, goes out. Now this kind of "perfection" would be impossible to measure of course, but let's say we would use our own ears.

The only way to even remotely approach the accuracy of our subjective measurement, is to play the kind of music that Aleg listed in one of his recent posts, acoustical musical instruments and human voice. And for even more improved accuracy, unmixed and unmastered, just two mikes for the recording. It's really hard to find recordings like that these days, but some from the 50's and 60's still exist. The sample I used for my binaural conversion comes to mind, Dave Brubeck's Take Five. That's the only music with an existing point of reference in our reality.

Amplified and electric/electronic music is created by circuit boards and sound engineers. There is no objective reference to judge the fidelity of the playback compared to the original. My point is, and I've mentioned this before, that playing Led Zeppelin or Coldplay as test tracks, makes it impossible for you to judge the fidelity level of your system, be it software or hardware. Even if you would have the perfect system and you would play rock with 2 different versions of MQn, all you'd be able to say is which one you like best. And that's on a perfect system. If you're listening to the motherboard audio output of your laptop on untweaked Windows, that would add another layer of imperfection, which could mean that in a very real sense, with MQn at the levels it has reached now, you will have no valid reference point at all to judge if a version has gotten closer or further away from perfection.

That's not snobbism, or wanting to show off how good our systems are. It's plain science. With a tweaked system like Aleg's that's very close to perfection, and the acoustical reference tracks he's using to test versions, he's in a much better position to judge if a version has come closer to that point of perfection or further away. That's what he means with neutrality, and yes, coming closer to perfection, all the sub-qualities of music reproduction are getting "better" as well: detail, timing, PRAT, musicality, tonality, decay, you name it. Using Led Zeppelin on your laptop output to judge if a version of MQn is good or not, is like a wine connaisseur eating hot chilli just before he takes a sip of the finest of red wines to test it. He might really enjoy a nice bottle with his chilli, but he's no longer in a position to judge its quality. A bottle of Tesco value might make him feel just as good as the best Chianti. :-) That's just the way things work! It's nothing personal...

Oh and ...
I wish Gordon would provide a selection of the versions that people currently are happy with to allow
hires files be played.
+1
That would be brilliant!
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wushuliu
Posts: 180
Joined: Tue Oct 22, 2013 2:24 am

Re: MQN

Post by wushuliu »

Ah, I didn't realize Aleg's system was the reference by which all others must be measured. I apologize for raising petty concerns. Have fun.
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Fujak
Posts: 38
Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2014 6:44 am

Re: MQN

Post by Fujak »

Aleg wrote:No, MQn should be developed to be a neutral and detailed player, to be the best a player can be.
+1

In my opinion there is no alternative to a detailed and high resolving player. This is independent from used hardware. I use MQn in my audiophile setup (see my profile) and on my desktop office PC as well. The difference between MQn and other players is audible on both setups; certainly the better the chain the more the difference is audible, also regarding several versions of MQn.

By the way: the most resolving versions are the avx-versions. So I hope that there will be an avx of the most recent versions 3.8x...3.9x.
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lukivision
Posts: 27
Joined: Sat May 10, 2014 10:10 pm

Re: MQN

Post by lukivision »

For me it makes no sense if everyone is listening to different pieces of music in different chains and listening-rooms. In this way there can never be a comparable result. I would suggest that we all at least chose the same piece of music and discuss furtheron on this common base. I could imagine that "Take Five" by Dave Brubeck might fit our purpose. Maybe there are one or max. two more pieces that will do.

LUKI
tony
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Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2010 2:36 pm

Re: MQN

Post by tony »

lukivision wrote:For me it makes no sense if everyone is listening to different pieces of music in different chains and listening-rooms. In this way there can never be a comparable result. I would suggest that we all at least chose the same piece of music and discuss furtheron on this common base. I could imagine that "Take Five" by Dave Brubeck might fit our purpose. Maybe there are one or max. two more pieces that will do.

LUKI
What is this young upstart suggesting I can't use badly recorded bootleg versions of I Zimbra going forward!!

Wushuliu you do know Aleg is using a Naim dac that is bested by a sony walkman sized dac with shiny lights!

The wind will blow whatever way or mood Gordon is in and I think if we are all honest in some shape or form we will hang on for the ride it has been too rewarding to walk away now. Gordon just needs to get his ACT TOGETHER AND GIVE US SOME HIRES VERSIONS.

On a serious note I am happy to stick to a selection of tracks that are 'approved' for purpose. The reality is the stuff Aleg and Lukivision suggest are from the time music was recorded and produced correctly. More learned people then myself have pointed this out about the 50-60's period at various meets.
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Aleg
Posts: 1381
Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2013 8:26 pm

Tip: Styles can be applied quickly to selected text.

Post by Aleg »

[quote="tony"...

Wushuliu you do know Aleg is using a Naim dac that is bested by a sony walkman sized dac with shiny lights!

.....[/quote]

Tony, my dear chap

I could continue testing using that walkman sized DAC with shiny lights if you've got more confidence in that one !! LOL :-()

I think I might have the first / only one in Holland ?!

Cheers

Aleg
HDPLEX;picoPSU;ASUS Q87M;i7-4770T;PH SR7EHD;Server2012R2;Thesycon 2.24;
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tony
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Re: Tip: Styles can be applied quickly to selected text.

Post by tony »

Aleg wrote:[quote="tony"...

Wushuliu you do know Aleg is using a Naim dac that is bested by a sony walkman sized dac with shiny lights!

.....
Tony, my dear chap

I could continue testing using that walkman sized DAC with shiny lights if you've got more confidence in that one !! LOL :-()

I think I might have the first / only one in Holland ?!

Cheers

Aleg[/quote]

Did you get one?
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