sbgk wrote:JC strikes again, and I thought I was going off topic.
don't know what % we are at. Would need to audition something like the NAD that uses different technology.
It's the convenience of a one/two box solution that is also attractive, goodbye to all the tweaking.
I'm pretty sure the future of high end is dedicated hardware and software, there are just too many compromises when using a pc.
I think you're probably right wrt the true highend.
Naim streamers use dedicated SHARC DSP chips with Naim's own microprograms.
I just wish these streamers didn't use these DLNA/UPnP communication protocols, but would just stick to SMB/CIFS.
On the other hand the best one, NDS, with the best LPSUs will cost you the price of a decent car.
I must say you do quite nicely with MQn :-)
Diapason wrote:These dedicated devices, tuned for optimum audio playback? Don't you mean CD transports?
Yes, it's ironic, isn't it :) But your Wadia is probably a good example of such a dedicated/optimised device.
However, didn't recent auditions of your Wadia Vs computer audio deliver an evenly matched result? So it makes me wonder if the tweaked PCs are nearly as good as it gets but with the added possibilities of high resolution, ease of navigation & remote control
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Well the most recent test is hard to interpret in that, for me at least, the overriding factor was the addition of the Meitner dac to the mix. Damn wadia for not giving me digital inputs and outputs for free, that would have allowed a proper test.
I suppose as an innocent bystander I'm just as confused as to where the state of the art lies. For what it's worth if I was starting from scratch there's no way I'd spend big money on a cd transport, but getting a pc to deliver at the highest level certainly isn't a cheap solution either.
I dunno, I'm not sure which of us is mad at this stage. I think I'm mad to persist with bulky spinning discs that don't offer much storage and that are an archaic way of doing what should be a simple job of transferring a digital signal in real time. But then I look at the alternatives... ;)
I remember at the show a few years ago Cloney were demonstrating a disc spinner that actually buffered the data in memory as it went along. An interesting hybrid approach I always thought.
Nerdcave: ...is no more! Sitting Room: Wadia 581SE - Rega Planar 3/AT VM95ML & SH - Bluesound Node II - Copland CSA 100 - Audioplan Kontrast 3 Kitchen: WiiM Pro - Wadia 151 - B&W 685s2
I believe a major reason that some of the other streaming/networked/DSP devices have not delivered the high-end sound that they could is because they have not targeted the prime factor that we see emerging from all these experiments - PS noise. The CD spinner approach probably has a slight advantage to start with as it is a simpler device with less processing happening & therefore less PS fluctuations/noise.
An optimal solution, in my mind, would perform as little processing as possible during the critical stages of the audio files journey to the DAC. Again though, the problem is that we have not quiet nailed down where these critical steps are located.
I've always liked the concept of bypassing the processor & using direct memory access (DMA) when transporting the file from one stage to the next - it has the potential to be the least noisy, electrically. Having said this, it does depend on many things down to very low levels of detail, such as how many gates of a chip are firing during critical stages of this journey.
To give an example of this - a well known issue with DAC chips & I2S is glitching on the analogue outputs i.e. momentary spikes in the output. The datasheets of many good DAC chips specify this glitch energy & take steps to reduce it to insignificant levels. One situation that gives rise to such a spike appearing in the analogue out is when the DAc is handling a signal change from zero to -1. This seems like a simple step but in I2S two's complement notation zero is all bits set at 0 & a -1 signal is all bits set a 1. In other words if the signal goes from zero to one the DAC chip has to turn on all current source switches at the same time (each bit maps to a current source switch in the chip). At the microscoping size of the electrical pathways inside the chips, turning on all currents at once (from being off) can cause a glitch on the analogue output.
This is the sort of micro-detail that an optimised audio design needs to be aware of, I believe.
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Diapason wrote:Well the most recent test is hard to interpret in that, for me at least, the overriding factor was the addition of the Meitner dac to the mix. Damn wadia for not giving me digital inputs and outputs for free, that would have allowed a proper test.
I suppose as an innocent bystander I'm just as confused as to where the state of the art lies. For what it's worth if I was starting from scratch there's no way I'd spend big money on a cd transport, but getting a pc to deliver at the highest level certainly isn't a cheap solution either.
I dunno, I'm not sure which of us is mad at this stage. I think I'm mad to persist with bulky spinning discs that don't offer much storage and that are an archaic way of doing what should be a simple job of transferring a digital signal in real time. But then I look at the alternatives... ;)
I remember at the show a few years ago Cloney were demonstrating a disc spinner that actually buffered the data in memory as it went along. An interesting hybrid approach I always thought.
Yea, it's all madness at this stage but that's the nature of the stage the process is at - investigation/research. (it's why it is an easy target for those that want to scoff & belittle these efforts)
Also agree that buffering makes logical sense but again the implementation is probably crucial to it's success.
The TotalDAC seems to have taken these concepts onboard (although not perfect) & produced an expensive €6,500 DAC with buffers, FPGAs, DSPs & discreet resistor ladder (to do the bit mapping to current output) built from individual high-precision expensive Vishay resistors - no DAC chip used.
I heard a linux based system the other night - only through headphones - but its sounded very good indeed. Having said that, the set up was a very minimalist linux - pure command line stuff with nothing else running. I'd love to compare it to a zuma type setup.
Yes, the command line stuff in linux is very user unfriendly - but not much more so than total commander. I have a suspicion that with a truly minimalist OS like the linux one, we would have a fighting chance of doing more with it than a windows based OS. I tried a linux build myself (supposedly audiophile) but it sounded worse than even a basic W8 install. I know I lack the skills and the time.
If looking towards Linux systems then using ARM based computers makes more sense than Intel based ones, I believe.
The ARM processors are very low power - easier to power with battery/linear PSes - maybe even to bring the power right to the processor chip?
Powerful enough to run Linux & audio, I reckon & cheap
Interesting one here http://utilite-computer.com/web/home
And a selection of others here http://compulab.co.il/products/computer-on-modules/#arm
Or maybe a Chromebook (ARM based) can also run Linux & provide another platform option?
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