The evolution of CDP

[Marcus]

I've been reading about the recent developments in high end CD players, transports and Dacs and how far they have apparently come on in the last 4-5 years. I came across a review of a high end player - weighing in at 28kgs and costing $10,000, built in UK. In amongst the elevated praise, there was a comment that the reviewer listened to 'Songbird' from Fleetwood Mac's Rumours and that it’s only since playing the track on this player that he noticed the acoustic guitar which accompanies McVie’s piano.

I am quite familiar with this track (must be my age) and can hear this guitar on my current CD player reasonably clearly, more so as the track builds, but it is there from the beginning - so does this mean the level of retrieval is not improving and the focus is on other subjective, perceptive areas (sonics/soundstage/musicality - however they are determined). I'm sure I'm listening for the guitar now I've read the comment so I'm bound to hear it more clearly, but I'm sure it was always there.

I would be interested to know from someone who has listened/demoed newer design CD players as to where the main improvements are. I notice that some recent players are designed using valves in the output stage - interesting how the world turns!

I'm also predicting an increase in playing Fleetwood Mac CDs :)

[Diapason]

The whole "details I never heard before" thing is funny, because having had that experience myself I invariably find that the detail was always there, I just never heard it before for whatever reason. Does this point to improved detail retrieval, improved spacial cues, better separation, or is it all just because we're listening "harder" when we're testing something. I've no idea.

As to the wider question, I'm interested in that too because my player is about 4 or 5 years old and I'm wondering have there been massive improvements since. I've told this anecdote before, but for a long time I used an Arcam Alpha 6 player and never thought much about it. CD is CD, right? Well, that's what I was led to believe on rec.audio.high-end at the time. One day I put my DVD player (which was an Arcam CV79, no slouch) into my hifi system and was astonished to discover that the DVD player TROUNCED the Alpha 6. That prompted a CD player upgrade. Later, when I bought my first Blu-ray player in Power City for €170, I was amazed to discover that it sounded better (in my system at least) than the Arcam. I would definitely believe that technology in this area has moved on leaps and bounds.

[Ciaran]

Yes, I find that as my system gets better I hear more detail from my kitchen radio (which stays the same) and other modest sources. I suppose there must be a sensible explanation!

[tony]

Yes, I find that as my system gets better I hear more detail from my kitchen radio (which stays the same) and other modest sources. I suppose there must be a sensible explanation!

That gave me a very good laugh but I agree totally. Listening to an ipod in the car through a cassette player and I notice the same thing. Obvious quality difference between the products. I think it is just easier to hear all the detail in a good clean system. One tends not to notice the detail when listening on something cheap and cheerful and often don't bother to make the effort. You guys have to get David Byrnes book how music works. As a lot of this type of thing is discussed in great and similar detail.

[jaybee]

I've been pondering this too, and am conversant with the arcam alpha 6 fable!

I was out in Cloney a short while back and had this discussion with Noel, while picking his brain about upgrade paths... mine has bifurcated..!!

I explained that I was interested in moving to vinyl, but that would entail a handover while I built up a record collection. His advice was that, in his opinion, most of the advances were in the DAC domain, and that my money would be best spent (for digital upgrade purposes) on a new DAC. While I could upgrade the transport, he felt that it would require a substantial four figure outlay to achieve an improvement on a par with that achievable by upgrading the DAC.

So my (pushing 20 year old) transport receives a stay of execution!

[DaveF]

While I could upgrade the transport, he felt that it would require a substantial four figure outlay to achieve an improvement on a par with that achievable by upgrading the DAC.

well depending on what DAC you get, spending another 4K on a transport could well be a waste of money. Some modern DAC's these days can handle jitter very well and be pretty much immune to jitter on the incoming SPDIF stream.
I don't believe in audible differences between transports and even less so if they are CD-ROM based as the error correction is there.

On the subject of the evolution of the CDP, I believe the advances are more down to better implementation as opposed to great advances in the technology. Granted, better DAC's are now available but we're not talking about high speed digital etc. Such chips are relatively very cheap in comparison to the ridiculous prices that some hifi companies charge for the final product.

John Kenny's JKDAC has shown that with proper implementation, an extremely well performing DAC that can go toe to toe with well established brands doesnt have to cost 1000's!

[Fran]

All what I am going to say is based on my own experience, so there may well be technical explanations to refute any of this but here goes anyway:

Some modern DAC's these days can handle jitter very well and be pretty much immune to jitter on the incoming SPDIF stream.

Yes, the ESS sabre dac is meant to be particularly good at this. However it still sounds better with ever decreasing jitter levels. So while it might be very well able to decode a signal with lots of jitter, less jitter still sounds better.

I don't believe in audible differences between transports and even less so if they are CD-ROM based as the error correction is there.

Mmmm, this is certainly not what I have personally experienced. I know however that one could quote expectation bias, non-AB testing and more.

I believe the advances are more down to better implementation as opposed to great advances in the technology

Agreed - in fact I think more and more of the advances are down to better power supplies. Separate supplies came first, then more separate regulators, all getting closer and closer to what I think are perhaps the best sounding power supplies in audio - shunts. The LiFePO4 batteries are right up there for LV circuits.

John Kenny's JKDAC has shown that with proper implementation, an extremely well performing DAC that can go toe to toe with well established brands doesnt have to cost 1000's

+1

FWIW, I've been working on a new offering of the 47 labs shigaraki player - available as a ready built option from a small startup in Romania of all places. Only sounds bloody great and a substantial step up from my own shigaclones. Hence my comments about the differences I have heard above. See http://www.vicol-audio.ro/shiga.php for more... Its only in their webshop as a kit yet, but I think they will be releasing prebuilt options.

***********************

Having said all that, I think that CDPs have improved a lot in the last 5 or 6 years, and ones from that period tend to show improvement on ones from the early noughties. Like always, there are exceptions to every rule. The Oppo players are often quoted as fantastic value, very good sounding players.

Cheapest best sound though for me still has to be the jkdac. Still the cheapest way to get shockingly good sound form digital setup.



Fran

[Sloop John B]

http://www.naimaudio.com/sites/default/ ... an2011.pdf


a review from a German magazine of British hi-fi but some points relevant to this topic none the less.


SJB

[markof]

My main system is computer based (Mac into a JKDAC32) and the biggest/fastest improvements have been in player software.
In my case, each iteration of the Audirvana betas have resulted in dramatic improvements in sound quality, resulting in a huge bang for your buck.
Surprisingly, my experience is that the lower resolution files gain the most improvement is sq.
Mark

[Diapason]

My main system is computer based (Mac into a JKDAC32) and the biggest/fastest improvements have been in player software.

As a casual observer, I don't really understand this. What the hell is going on with the software?